Irresponsible Open Carry Activism Jeopardizes The RKBA
Guns should be carried for personal defense, not Activism.
The best way to do that 99% of the time is Concealed Carry. Even if people do choose to Open Carry, they shouldn’t do it to provoke confrontation nor be uncooperative with the police while doing it. It makes gun owners look bad, turns cops against us, wastes their valuable time and certainly isn’t going to make it more likely that people will think “oh, gun owners are normal people, not trouble makers.
Spread the Word. Most people have realized that the time for “solidarity” through tolerance of the guys carrying guns with video cameras has come and gone. Their bravado is jeopardizing our RKBA and should be seen as an embarrassment to responsible gun owners. When the OC Movement started, people carrying while going about their daily business to show responsibly armed people are part of everyday life, it made some sense… but, the extremists have spun out of control. Let’s make sure that the firearms community is condemning this behavior.
I am not calling for a change in laws or for us to ostracize people who carry openly in a responsible, civil manner. Perhaps responsible OCers should be most concerned and the most openly critical of those who are using their guns to get (inevitably negative) attention?
Obviously, I am a proponent of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and do not want to to see OC made illegal, but I fear that will happen more and more often, in more and more places (as it already has it one state), if the confrontational actions of a very few reckless people continue.
-Rob Pincus
-I.C.E. Training Company
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If someone is peacefully walking down the street, and a cop comes up and accosts him for no reason, the cop is the one being “confrontational.”
The only correct response to a call that there’s someone walking around with a gun is to ask, “is he doing anything illegal or suspicious?” If the only thing he’s doing is carrying a gun, the correct response is to tell the caller to mind his/her own business and stop making nuisance calls to the police.
Cops who unlawfully detain those who are peacefully carrying guns should be immediately fired, charged criminally, and sued into poverty. There is no excuse, ever, for taking an oath, and then breaking it in order to get one’s jollies hassling someone who is exercising a basic human right.
A few years ago, some of us were hanging out at a park here in NH. It was a hot day, and few were bothering with any sort of cover garment to conceal their pistols. Some folks in a minivan with CT plates rolled up and started unpacking their picnic, then they looked over and noticed all of the guns. ABout 30 seconds later, a cruiser happened to drive by, and they flagged him down and started ranting (the distance was too far and they were too worked-up to speak clearly, but it was obvious what they were ranting about from the snippets that came through) and pointing at us. The cop looked over at us, looked back at them, and it was clearly-audible over the distance since he had a pretty commanding voice, when he told them, “they’re not breaking any law at all; if you don’t like it, you can leave.”
/That/ is how an honest cop handles that situation. Any cop who cannot handle discharging his duties honestly, is welcome to quit. Anyone who captures evidence of cops behaving in a crooked manner is doing a public service.
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Whoa there Tomcat… We don’t live in a police state (yet, but with your attitiude, we’re fast approaching). Police cannot pull someone over, detain, interrogate without reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed.
A policeman cannot pull me over while I’m not breaking any law under the suspicion that my driver’s license might be suspended and I might not have a right to drive. Ergo, I cannot be detained for OC which is legal under the suspicion that I might be a convicted felon and not have the right to carry.
You Sir are sorely mistaken and your comments put you on a slippery slope with regards to your freedoms.
But I do agree with you on the Youtube activists part…
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“Johnny law” is welcome to “investigate” by driving up, looking to see that I am not committing any crime, and then driving away. He can even ask all the questions he likes. And I can ignore him and walk away. If he tells me that I cannot, that’s a detention, and if he does not have lawful cause to detain me, he’s committing a major crime.
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In order to detain someone, legally, the police officer must have reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime is being committed. Not, “well, he /might/ have been a prohibited person.” Presumably, most everyone posting here has genitalia… that doesn’t mean a cop can detain you because you “might” be a rapist.
If a cop comes up and wants to “question” me, I will respond by asking if I’m free to go. If he says yes, I will do so. If he says no, he better have a solid, legal reason for detaining me, or I /will/ press criminal charges, as well as suing him under 42USC1983, and by the time I’m done, I’ll own his house and he’ll be on the street. Which is exactly what a crook like that deserves.
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I used to be indifferent but after reading this I agree with Rob.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The late Dan Weiner once told that being a gun owner in California was a little like being a gay man in Texas. That was in a different context than Pincus’s remark but, given recent events, it’s probably not a good time for those who carry to come out of the closet.
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I have a lot of respect for Rob Pincus, but I can’t agree with him on this. So exercising your constitutional rights is wrong is it? No no no and hell no.
Flint (above) is right. Simply having a visible firearm in a place where open carry is legal is NOT a crime. Punish nuisance-suiters and cops who violate their oaths, not the citizens who impudently exercise their rights. Who the hell do these open-carriers think they are, Americans or something?
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I totally agree with you Tom. The only thing I’d say is that if there’s ever a time when you believe open carry activism may hurt your ability to defend yourself (say, if November goes terribly wrong) then realize that you’re making a choice. If I’m forced to choose between activism and defending my family I’ll always choose the latter, tragic though that choice may be.
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Pincus, when you find a trend that OCers are harming the RKBA movement, go for it. Until then, shut your suck.
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Rob is a very good Trainer and RKBA Warrior. We are lucky he is on our side.
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But only if people act in a manner he approves of.
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Isn’t he based in New Jersey? I’m not really likely to value the opinions on gun carry, of someone who voluntarily chooses a hell-hole like NJ.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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No.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I said, “Rob is a very good Trainer and RKBA Warrior. We are lucky he is on our side.”
Three dislikes to that statement? Really? You guys might be on the wrong blog then.
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Is he, though? He doesn’t seem to be on mine. Why is it that the typical open carrier respects another’s choice to carry concealed, but a well “respected” concealed-carrier like Mr. Pincus seems to go out of his way to criticize and demean people who choose to openly carry?
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California outlawed OC, Mississippi closed the door on the gray area regarding OC for those with permits…. That’s two. I’d rather not see 3 states where this right is LOST because of the attention seekers.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I am fairly sure the CA ban was planned by those challenging the law in the courts. After the court ruled that the CC ban was ok because unloaded OC was allowed, getting OC banned ensured that the state laws would get kicked in the teeth by the courts. This litigation is ongoing and will have a lot of impact outside of CA.
By banning OC and now OC of long guns, the CA legislature ensured that CA will become shall issue within a few years.
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Rob, if cops didn’t stop and question people for doing something legal then they wouldn’t show up on Youtube would they?
And that’s pretty much the bottom line. If an officer responds it should be observing for a while from his cruiser or at a distance to make sure the OC’er wasn’t behaving erratically or dangerously. And if not then he should call it in as that and drive away. Sure there are a lot of laws. But one of the top five things a cop should be fully informed and aware of is the carry laws in the state where he lives and works. I don’t see how that is remotely debatable.
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You know, if someone gives my comment a thumbs down I’m going to assume they believe cops should be able to approach and question everyone who legally open carries or should be able to stop and question people when they are doing absolutely nothing wrong.
They must be okay with “that” kind of America.
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You gotta look at it through the Cops point of view.
His JOB is to Protect and Serve. You see a guy you don’t know walking toward a store or theatre or whatever… You just see him walking. Of course he isn’t doing anything… but you don’t know him and you don’t know why he’s there or what he’s going to do.
If you are in a Rural area, and lots of people are packing – maybe it’s nothing. If you are in an Urban area and lots of people around with no one else openly packing… That guy stands out as someone the cop needs to have a world with.
“Hello, Sir, Can I see some ID?”
“Absolutely, Officer. I’m going to reach for my wallet.”
In that case, the officer is going look at the ID, ask you whats up, maybe check for warrants. None, nothing is up, your just OCing that day… Your cool… off you go with your very nice day.
“Hello, Sir, Can I see some ID?”
“No, I don’t have to show you ID, I’m within my rights!”
Yeah, thats the problem right there and it all goes downhill. Officer now knows two things about you. 1, you have a gun. 2, you are uncooperative. That’s going to get you in trouble, Rights or Not. Whatever you were just about to go do, isn’t happening anymore. Now you are not Open Carrying, but Activist Carrying and that does NOT help our Cause one single bit.
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No Ogre, their job is to enforce the laws. The courts have repeatedly ruled that they are under no obligation to protect any individual.
If there is no law against OC and there is no law requiring the person to show ID, then they have no business inquiring about either one.
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Generally, that’s how they go about protecting and serving. And that’s the attitude most good cops have. If you ask them, they will respond with a form of “to protect and serve.”. You van debate legality all you want. Still doesn’t mean dick when a cop feels he needs to have a word with you and ask why your packing open.
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But that’s the thing… he doesn’t “need” to have a word with me. He can /ask/ to have a word with me. If he asks nicely, I’ll probably be perfectly willing to talk to him. Heck, my father was a cop for half a century by the time he retired; if I was unwilling to talk to cops, that would have made for some very uncomfortable family gatherings.
But when some cop shows up and starts /demanding/ answers from me, I’m going to explain exactly where he can file those demands. He’s a public servant, so he should treat me like his boss, since I am. I’m a fairly relaxed boss, so he can even treat me as his equal. But if he tries to act like he’s superior to me, he’ll find out that the boss don’t play that game.
Things change if he catches me committing a crime, just like things change if you catch your boss embezzeling. But until then, you treat your boss with the respect he deserves, and he’ll probably treat you with respect; if you start making demands, don’t expect your boss to treat you respectfully.
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Yeah, but… you’re not “the boss” of the police… not anymore than you are the boss of the trash guy. If you go out and start smarting off to him, he’ll probably punch you in the throat with a trash can lid.
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Actually, I’m the boss of both of them. In the case of the police, if one of the officers doesn’t behave, then come January, we’ll vote to defund his salary (technically, only the chief or the selectboard can fire him, but the voters can refuse to pay him) and if the chief doesn’t behave, then he won’t be re-elected, and could even be subject to a recall vote.
In the case of the trash guy, if I don’t like him for some reason, I’ll hire one of the other half-dozen that work in this area. I find it amusing that you imagine I’m not the boss of someone who I contracted to do work for me.
I’m quite please with his level of service, but even if I had some reason to reprimand or fire him, I cannot imagine him trying to “punch [me] in the throat with a trash can lid” – that would be assault with a deadly weapon, and he’d be dead or dying before he could complete the swing. He seems rather too intelligent and level-headed to commit suicide in such a manner. Even if he had such inclinations, well, an armed society is a police society…
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You’ve officially crossed the line to “Delusional”.
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Your claim makes no sense. Can you explain what, in particular, you’re having trouble understanding?
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If your goal is to normalize OC and foster a mutual respect between policemen and armed citizens, talking to them like you believe you’re their shift Sergeant isn’t going to help you reach it. Talking to them with the tonality of a conceited junior professor isn’t going to help either.
If the policemen is simply making contact to feel you out, no harm has been done. In fact you can turn it into a positive experience for both of you that will help the cause.
It’s a question of priorities and diplomacy. Do you want to help make OC a common practice, or do you want to win right points with a random patrolman? It’s two different things.
Just like traffic tickets, it doesn’t help to argue law on the street. If the officer in question does something out of line, you argue the law in court.
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(the site is parsing replies oddly – the previous reply by me is actually to Mr. Pincus)
stomper: again, that’s not what we’re talking about. If someone comes up to me and speaks to me politely, I’m likely to speak politely to him, in return, regardless of whether he’s wearing a uniform, a suit, jeans, or scuba gear. Cops like that are not the problem, and they don’t end up on YouTube or whatever. I vote to reduce the local police budget every year, and that motion often carries, but the chief still smiles and waves if he sees me somewhere in town, because we both treat each other professionally. He’s a young pup, and he had some big shoes to fill when he was elected to replace the former chief when he finally retired, but he’s been doing a decent job of settling into the position. I treat him as my employee, but as a valued employee who shows up to work on time, does what he’s paid to do, doesn’t use the company credit card to buy himself lunch, and generally earns his salary. Good employees are hard to find, and you hold onto those who prove themselves valuable.
The cops who end up on YouTube are the ones who come up to ordinary, law-abiding citizens and treat them as if they were criminals, and then demand that they prove themselves innnocent. They aren’t “reachable” – oathbreakers are the lowest form of life out there, and it’s useless to try and appeal to the humanity of one such as that. Those are the ones who end up on YouTube, not the calm, polite, professional ones.
Actually, that’s not correct: I’ve seen a few cases where someone posted a video of a cop who behaved professionally, with thanks for the professionalism.
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10-4. I understand that.
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That’s exactly right.
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Just the sort of logical and well stated response that I’ve come to expect from you, Mr. Pincus. Please, keep up the good work. With more posts like that, our comments won’t even be necessary.
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Being armed and refusing to “cooperate” is still not evidence of criminal behavior.
Someone who’s carrying may or may not be a felon. A cop who detains someone unlawfully, /is/ a felon.
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The best way to get cops to be cool with OC is to be cool with the cops that interact with you. That may offend the atheistic ghost of Ayn Rand, but it’s true.
If an officer has had prior positive and uneventful interaction with OCers, he’ll be quite fine with the next one he encounters. There doesn’t have to be pointless escalation.
A patrolman talking to you is not a “Stop” or a “detention”. It’s a guy talking to you. If you decide to work up a big case of ass, that can change. But why would you want that?
Strapping on a side arm does not magically transform you into an exalted Samurai that lesser beings are forbidden to speak to. A policeman can to speak to you before you put on a gun and he can speak to you after you put on a gun. I don’t see a reason to treat every cop you see like a foreign soldier from the UN occupation forces.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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In california open carry was, for the most part, outlawed in 1967 by the Mulford Act. The recent law just closed a “loophole” that was opened by People v. Clark in 1996.
The Mulford Act was really a reaction the Black Panthers recording police stops in Oakland. The Oakland PD hated it and acted accordingly. Consequently, the Panthers started openly carry guns as a deterrent to the police reaction. Unfortunately, such uppity behavior scared the white folks and the practice was quickly outlawed.
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I may be in an unusual spot (physically and philosophically).
Here in Prescott Arizona open carry isn’t unusual. I see often see others going about their business wile open carrying and I regularly do it myself. In 13 years I’ve never had ANY police interaction over it and only the barest sliver of negative reaction from anyone else (tourists from elsewhere at that).
Jeff Cooper even remarked on the area:
“Strange at it may seem to our over-civilized friends throughout the world, it still warms our heart to see pistols worn openly in the check lines of supermarkets in Prescott. Sad to say most of the exemplars may properly be characterized as geezers, but then Prescott has always qualified as a geezer town – that is one reason why we moved here.”
I want to keep it this way. Would it be better to stop open carrying out of concern that it might suddenly begin provoking a negative response? Or should I keep doing as I’ve been and maintain the comfortable and friendly attitudes to OC that the area already enjoys?
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Yes, “Shut your suck” because he isn’t JUST making a guest post on Ogre’s site. He’s done his own youtube posts talking trash to the OCers.
http://gunnuts.net/2012/05/21/rob-pincus-and-james-yeager-on-open-carry/
His opinion is well stated and when him and his buddy turn around and insult OCers because of the method they choose to carry, then there’s an issue that I see. They flat out say “You are ok to carry so long as it’s Concealed unless that’s all you’ve got.” (paraphrased)
They make a ton of generalizations every single time. OCers aren’t trained. OCers are attention whores. There are no benefits to OC.
If they said “I don’t like OC” then that’s one thing. He’s stating his opinion. When he goes and says “I am vehemently against the assclownery of people open carrying to make a political statement.” (Exact quote)
So anybody that exercises their right to open carry to invoke questions from other citizens, they’re an assclown.
I OC about 50% of the time. I do it so people ask me questions. I WANT them to say “Do you have a permit?” so I can say “Well, here in Utah, you do not need one.” and I can respond to their misconceptions and questions they’ve got. I can turn someone who sees guns ONLY in Dirty Harry movies knocking badguys 11 feet backwards into someone who understands that guns are ONLY tools, good or bad only comes into play with its wielder’s hands.
But I’m an assclown.
If we don’t make sure the cops know what our rights are, we’ll lose them by fiat. Since EVERYBODY hides their gun and EVERYBODY rolls over for the police, it must be the law so when people DO stand up for their rights, they’re beating back down to where citizens should be.
Only those that will question the actions of the police will make sure they stay behind their legal lines. Do you REALLY expect the other police to? “Qualified immunity” rears its head EVERY SINGLE DAY when some citizen has their rights abused or ignored.
But the OCers are assclowns.
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How, precisely, do “activists” confront cops? I’ve rarely seen /anyone/ “confront” a cop.
In any of the incidents I’m aware of, the cop(s) confronted someone who was peacefully walking down the street.
As far as caselaw and legal challenges, maybe you should address those, directly, rather than blaming the victims?
Here in NH, the official word from the Attorney General’s office is that the mere presence of a gun is not cause for a “disturbing the peace” arrest, because disturbing the peace requires behavior that would cause a reasonable person to be put in fear, and no reasonable person fears the mere presence of a gun.
Fix the mess in your government, or move someplace civilized. In either case, don’t blame the victims.
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Lund vs SLC came up with the same decision. Mere possession of a firearm is not RAS to stop. But if you open carry, you’re an assclown.
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For the record, the last sentence above is sarcasm.
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No longer is there a fine line between those who agree with oc and those who don’t but rest assured the ones who don’t will be the first to call on you when the scales finaly tip and the sh*t hits the fan. Lets just hope this does not happen after they have stripped us of our rights in an effort to keep us “safe” The media has blatently pursued the idea that gun ownership leads to accidents and has tried very effectivly to create panic in the mainstream wich has saddly led to less education on how to handle weaponry of all sorts rather than more all in all effectivly creating a catastrophy waiting to happen. I for one would rather be among people who know how to use and choose to carry rather than the ones who purchase for quote un quote home protection and then put it in a box never to see the light of day till oopps their kid finds it . insomniac rant #27 of the month lol . hug your kids kiss your spouse and thank whoever you want for one more day.
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As a Californian, I remember that the banning of open carry began with activist open carry guns by the Black Panthers. Good description and some interesting information (as well as some tendentiousness) here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/308608/?single_page=true
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One more thing: it looks like the guy (Japanese-American street thug, hard left radical, US Army vet, community college teacher) who gave the Panthers their first firearms was an undercover informant for the FBI at the time.
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Good thing those uppity N***ers had enough sense to not stir up trouble and fight for their rights…
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Thinking it over during the past day, I’ve realized what bothers me about this debate. I see it as punishing people not for breaking the law, but rather for not following the herd when the herd decides to not approach the boundaries of their rights because they’re afraid and want the .gov to take over certain responsibilities for them.
Sure these encounters cause friction, but in the big flick, isn’t allowing a the herd mentality of a bunch of holpophobes to define your rights a worse thing than the friction caused by an uninformed cop responding to a “man with a gun” call?
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Absolutely! I don’t see what problem Pincus has. “Don’t open carry! I hate open carry! You’re an assclown if you open carry!” and then they turn around and illegalize open carry, isn’t that what he was after to begin with? Nobody open carrying?
I’d rather see people having the ability to challenge the law then seeing people being handcuffed every day for that exact same activity. Whether it’s by judicial means or by fiat, the only way to prevent it is to make sure that everybody knows it’s legal. The ONLY thing Pincus cites as evidence this is happening is California. Not only that, but he referenced a video taken by people that weren’t being ‘assclowns’. There’s no way you can say anything other than California was going to illegalize it no matter what. It’s the bastion of liberal policy.
Courts have already said SOME method of carry must exist that is unrestricted by a financial burden (paying for permits, etc). This line of thought has not made it all the way to the top, yet, but the writing is on the wall. The thought of unpermitted concealed carry scares the sheep ten times more than OC does.
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I simply choose to carry concealed because being the first one shot during an incident does not appeal to me. C’mon people. When you give the bad guys a heads up by showing the ace up your sleeve you have made a poor choice.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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That must explain why muggers always show up and target cops… because open-carry attracts criminals…
Oh, wait, open-carry discourages criminals from attacking you, at all. The bank robber won’t target you because you have a gun; he’ll see that you have a gun, and leave without committing a robbery, at all.
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A) You’ll have to provide references if you want to be taken seriously. Right now, what you have there is hearsay.
B) Even if that’s exactly what happened, a single incident does not disprove a general rule. I’ll guarantee you that at least one individual who was carrying concealed has been disarmed, as well.
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Sorry, no. “I asserted this without evidence and now it’s up to you to prove me wrong” is not how adults have a discussion.
If you have evidence to support your claim, present it. If not, your claim is withotu merit.
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I object to Rob’s characterization that people that oc are extremists. Last time I checked exercising your rights isn’t extremism. Furthermore Rob uses the same language as our opponents. Good job making their point for them.
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For that matter, even if it is “extremism”…
“I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!” -Goldwater
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Glen,
Please re-read the essay. I am not talking about everyone who OC’s. I am talking about the people who OC with video camera in hand in crowded areas goading confrontation and then refusing to cooperate with police officers who respond.
Do you consider THEM Extreme ?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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There is only a limited requirement to cooperate with cops. Just because the cop feels like hassling you, is not one of those situations.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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This is where I agree with Rob. I’m not against OC altogether. I’m against guys that are looking for confrontation and or attention. I get its a right. If you are OCing because of self defense or just exercising your rights, that’s cool. Just don’t be surprised when you get some looks/stares. People are on guard after all the re ent shootings. What reassurance do they have that you are A. Not crazy, or B. A threat to their safety? Some people just like to provoke other people and create drama and get on the evening news. Not the right motivation in my mind. This was the message I pulled from reading Robs post and where I agree with him.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I don’t do it, but I do support those that *DO* look for confrontation. Why? Yes, they’re being jerks. They’re also in the right, legally. The more that stand up for their rights, the more the cops will say “Well, we shouldn’t pull them over because the chances of an open carrier NOT being allowed to carry is very slim, and there’s also a chance that he will drag us through the briars before everything is done. Let’s find a real criminal.”
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The only “looks” I get when open-carrying tend to be from folks who are interested in what I’m carrying (few folks carry a widebody 1911 – the average shooter probably doesn’t even realize that they exist), or folks who want to ask some question about gun laws.
That’s what happens, when folks don’t kowtow to those who hate guns: seeing guns in public is just a normal part of life.
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Pincus has a long history of opposing open carry. He’s made it clear that he considers all open carry to be “irresponsible open carry.”
He gets a huge chunk of his business from cops, so he bends over backwards to oppose anything that cops dislike, whenever possible.
And yes, anyone who catches criminals committing crimes, /especially/ if those criminals are wearing badges, is doing a public service. If you want to find out if there are coyotes around, you set up a game camera and put out bait that will attract coyotes. If you want to find out if there are cops that will attack innnocent people for exercising their human right to self-defense, you have a camera handy and exercise that right, and see what happens. Hopefully, you go home with the warm feeling that you live in a civilized place. If not, then at least you know what dangerous predators are around.
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Except that’s not what Pincus is talking about. He’s made it clear that he doesn’t care how good your pistol and your leather are – such things are not mentioned at all in his post. So that’s not the issue that’s being discussed.
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You expressed surprise that folks would “flip out” at his comments. If you were aware of the opinions he’s previously expressed, then you should not have been surprised. If you were not aware of the opinions he’s previously expressed, now you are, so you no longer have to wonder why folks would “flip out.”
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So open carry is OK as long as you spend alot of money on guns and gear? Isn’t that being an open carry snob?
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Nice strawman. What’s that got to do with anything?
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No, he said he supports OC *ONLY* when it’s the only available option legally.
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How is openly carrying a firearm different than walking with a pitbull/german shepherd/rottweiler at your side?
Both can be used as legal ways of crime deterrence and in the event that fails, as personal protection, yet walking a bulldog on a leash is more socially acceptable than carrying one on your hip.
I look forward to the day when being visibly armed to the teeth vs actually being armed with teeth becomes socially acceptable.
When I see someone with an interesting breed, I usually strike up a conversation with the owner about the dog, just like I would strike up a conversation with someone openly carrying at a shooting range about the firearm he is firing or carrying.
People need to see gun owners in the same light as dog owners. Both are very passionate and both can be easily persuaded to talk about the ones they enjoy most.
Despite loving dogs and guns, I am more at ease with people open carrying at a shooting range than being surrounded by people walking dogs; maybe it has to do with me having to do with being having been bitten in the face by a dog (just a scratch thank God)but never shot.
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I’m a little confused here. Isn’t Rob simply talking about the people who OC and then film themselves being total jerks to the patrolmen who interact with them? I read his post twice and that’s what it sounds like to me. If that is the case, I agree with him.
Some of the responders here seem to be referring to things he’s said at other times in other places. I am unaware of those specific declarations and so I can’t really comment on them.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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A cop stopping someone for open carrying is committing a serious crime. It’s appropriate to be a “total jerk” towards a criminal. But, as he says in his second sentence, he believes that only concealed carry is appropriate “99% of the time,” regardless of one’s behavior.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I think that you’ll find most of these folks who are accused of being “confrontational” ask if they are free to go, and are told that they are not.
Cops show up and start immediately /demanding/ answers, and tell the individual that he cannot leave until they say he can.
A “stop” is a detention. It requires reasonable, articulable suspicion of a crime.
In many cases, they disarm the individual, at which point it is unquestionably a detention.
Unlawful detention is a crime.
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And, as I just noted to Chem, these folks who are being accused of “irresponsible activism” are typically being unlawfully detained before they get “rude” with the cop.
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I don’t know what you may or may not be talking about. You expressed confusion about what sort of situation the original post was about, so I clarified what sort of “incidents” he has made it clear that he is discussing. Ergo, you should no longer be confused.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I’m unaware of how “ergo” is smarminess…
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I have to disagree with this guy, Ogre.
I have practiced OC on occasion.
I am not going to sit in the back of the bus, no matter how nervous some trainer based in New Jersey gets.
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Flint (if that is your REAL name ??), you are uneducated about me, my finances and my business… Stating things that are not true (I make a lot of money from cops, I am based in NJ, etc…) As facts makes you look the fool. It also makes it clear that you aren’t researching and/or thinking through these issues before you speak.
****
Everyone else,
Yes, It is true that I think OC is not as advantageous as CC for personal defense. Every other national level instructor I have talked to about it agrees.
Yes, I think guns should be carried for defense, not for political statement.
Those things are already well established.
THIS is essay was simply a rallying call / reminder to respeonsible gun owners in the US, honestly interested in the RKBA, that we need to stop laughing at and tolerating the Confrontational OC Activists. If you’re not one of them, I’m not talking about you.
Honestly, if you like OC, I suggest you should be the first to condemn the confrotational guys causing problems. OC rights have already been taken away in CA and MS this year because of OC Activism… The trend is already showing. Now it is a crime if my shirt blows open while Cc-ing… Thanks to OCers.
As Grant Cunningham said yesterday, “It’s time for adults to take back the OC Movement.”
-Rob
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Your website says that you’re based in “Mays Landing, NJ,” right on the “Contact” page. Is that inaccurate?
Any article I’ve read that discussed you, if it mentioned anything about your location, stated New Jersey. And they also say how you do so much business with cops.
So yeah, I’d say that anyone “researching” this would probably come to the conclusion that you’re based in NJ and do a heck of a lot of business with cops.
We had a rash of incidents where cops hassled folks for open carry, here in NH, a few years ago. Folks in some of the bigger cities had stopped open-carrying, so the cops thought they might be able to hassle them with impunity. Instead, they berated the cops soundly, published the info so that everyone else could call the department and complain, and generally made lives miserable for those few departments which tried to pull such nonsense. As a result, it stopped almost immediately.
You don’t mess with guns here in NH, because we actually take our rights seriously. As a result, I’ll never have to worry about what might happen if my shirt blows open. Or if it’s just hot weather, and I really don’t feel like bothering with an extra layer just to conceal my sidearm. We didn’t get the best gun laws in the US by hiding in holes. We got them by paying the price of liberty: eternal vigilance.
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Actually, I’ve just spent the last week in MA, VT and NH… Mostly the latter, And I’m sitting in the Manchester Airport as I write this. Didn’t see a single person OCing up here anywhere… Except on the rnge during my classes. :-)
My guess is tht the only “articles” you are reading are rants in secluded OC forums…. The things you are harping on are often brought up by the OC crowd instead of addressing the issues I bring up. 90% of my business is personal defense. mil/LE purses are an exception for me over the last couple of years…. And I’ve NEVER seen an article written about me or my companies that referenced percentage of revenue from various sectors.
I’m not sure NH has the ” best” gun laws, but thy are pretty good.
I’m 99% sure none of my wbites say I’m based in NJ…. I’ll double chek later. I do have a mailing office / business address in NJ because I travel constantly… Haven’t lived there since 87 and my companies are not based there. I “live” in Ohio.
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You must not pay all that much attention. Don’t feel bad – the police chief here in town did not notice that I was openly carrying when I went there to drop off my CCW, despite chatting with me for almost half an hour.
And no, I’m talking about the general articles that come up when someone does a web search for your name. They typically either mention Mays Landing or Toms River, which is easy for me to remember because my neighbor’s family is there, so he often talks about visiting.
Ohio is barely better than NJ, so that doesn’t get you much.
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If concealed carry is better for self defense 99% of the time, why do so many of your students open carry at the range? Isn’t it better to practice the way you normally carry?
Or do you admit that it is easier to access your weapon for use in training (and, therefore, defense) when it is carries openly? In fact, I’ve seen the video where you compare the two. Even though your open carry holster was in a different position on your body than your normal conceal carry rig, your OC draw was still faster. How do you explain that apparent discrepancy? On your video you waved it away as “only” about 1 to 2 tenths of a second. Only? When the average self-defense shooter only fires 2 shots, those tenths of a second can be the difference between life and death!
Frankly I’m glad to see you backpedaling. It seems enough people have shown you the idiocy of your original statements, that you’re finally starting to tone it down. Now you’re only targetting open carriers who cause a scene. I suppose that’s progress.
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One reason, one big reason students open carry in a class… Range Safety. The Instructor and his Safety Officers, and Assistant Instructors can watch what you are doing from Draw to Holster and can correct problems because they can see them. Safety Standpoint, and Instruction Standpoint. Hard to coach a Shooter on things when you can’t see what he’s doing.
Also, in most classes, you can indeed practice and train from Concealment – just ASK your Instructor and if he is comfortable with you doing it – it should be no problem.
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So you’re against a constitutional right, the one that was around long, long before concealed carry became the rage? I just had to educate my local PD as they were operating under the assumption that Missouti still had firearms preemtion on the books. Now rightly so, the STATE says we can open carry with NO repercusions from any city, town,municipality, county or any other political subdivision. And you see this as wrong?
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No, I’m against people using guns to get attention and cause confrontations. Especially when it negatively affects the image of gun owners and those who carry responsibly. (as I said…)
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Any time you open carry a gun you get attention. The attitude of the viewer is what drives the incident. The courtesy and knowlege of the carrier drives the outcome. Whether it’s a young person using what he can afford or a person with more experience and money, in the end it’s the actions of the carrier that guarantee the results. It doesn’t matter if the meeting is recorded and posted or kept private. The posting only exposes the good or the bad of the responding officers.
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Dean, that is a very Naive suggestion… If you really believe tht the attitude of the Ieper is all that drives an encounter, you not know much about human interaction. yes, there are certainly biases that play a role, it a calm person going about their business with a defensive firearm ilicites are very different response from a ostentatious person parading around with a video camera and an AR on their shoulder… Or an AK pistol draped acrossed their chest while wearing camp, as my new poster child for OC Assclownery did in TN.
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Some friends of mine were in a sandwich shop in Manchester, and some guy walked in with a slung FAL. No one even commented.
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In the future, you might be taken more seriously if you took the time to calmly type out your posts, and check them for spelling and grammar. I know that seems petty, but I’ve seen it happen on too many different occaisions now to let it go unsaid.
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I have a non-resident FL permit which covers concealed carry for 3 states I often visit(PA/VA/NC). Those are also open carry states and I do OC in those states at times. I don’t walk down the streets of Philthy open carrying however, even though I can(you need a permit for OC there but not the rest of PA). I do however like the option so as not to get fined/jailed/lose my permit because my cover garment got blown back or reveals the muzzle of my pistol while reaching for a box on the top shelf at the supermarket. I like being able to leave a nice restaurant in VT(a no permit state) and not worry about taking my jacket off on the way to the car. I open carry when snowmobiling in PA and VT because it is near impossible to get to a concealed pistol in a snowsuit. There is a time and a place for it, and a valid reason to want open carry to remain legal.
Having said that, Kali lost OC because people drew far too much attention to the fact that it was legal. Now sportsmen can not carry afield because people in urban centers wanted their egos stroked over their right to open carry an UNLOADED pistol. The police didn’t end Kali open carry, the people elected by the perpetually offended did. As more MASSholes invade VT they scream louder and louder about the need to curtail carry. Never mind the fact that they moved there to get away from the mess they caused back home. If you think your state is immune from this, think again.
A large part of what you are missing from what Rob stated is(IMHO) that those who post videos on youtube of being “accosted” by the police are doing us no favors. I’ve been approached by police officers while carrying open. Never has it turned into the “civics lesson” you see so many trying to dole out on the internet. Generally it was just a friendly “where you from?” “oh, on vacation?” “idle chit chat…” and on my way with a “have a nice day”. OH THE HORROR! To be so abused by THE MAN. If you really believe that the videos you see on youtube of people “standing up to police” in the name of OC are 100% virtuous and devoid of any Micheal Moore editing, well, I got a bridge to sell you.
Of course, Flint can completely ignore any of this as my residency in NJ proves I am incapable of any rational thought with regards to firearms.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Could you provide some examples of these “confrontational activists?” Because the ones I’ve seen show cops breaking the law and actually detaining folks without cause. If someone commits a major crime against me, you better believe I’m going to be a bit cross towards him…
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Flint, your passion for the topic has blinded you from seeing what any normal person can identify aseople looking fr confrontation and baiting the police into encounters just so they can rant about their rights.
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Baiting criminals into revealing themselves is legitimate behavior.
I’d like to see some examples of these “confrontational activists,” though. Surely, that’s not much to ask for…
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Guys, it’s common sense that’s missing. Can’t imagine anyone would argue that OC is tactically superior to CC. But if our OC right is truly under threat, and responsible gun owners collectively and in mass choose a day or a week to OC to educate the public, then the right could be protected for all and would be much more effective than youtube confrontations.
To think that an activist looking for confrontation is going to educate a cop and cause him to change his behavior, is small-minded. You don’t know how human nature works then. You’re as naive as any activist out there trying to change the world from Occupy Wall St to Save the Polar Ice Caps.
Use your energy more wisely is perhaps what the blogger is trying to say.
Just OC if that’s your thing, and at the same time you’re protecting your right. And if you’re stopped while peacefully going about your business, by all means pull out your Constitutional cue card and iPhone camera.
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After Simon Glick won his court case against the cops in Boston who arrested him for recording them (which is not ilelgal, despite MA law because, as the First Circuit noted, recording cops on duty is a Constitutionally-protected part of the First Amendment), the NH Attorney General’s office sent out a letter to every police department in the state, reminding them that they could face major lawsuits if they did such a thing.
A few departments here in NH had been starting to do similar things, and you better believe they stopped cold in their tracks once they say the settlement that Glick won.
So yes, I’d say that catching cops doing unlawful things can, indeed, cause them to change their behavior.
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If you want to make an ass of yourself and you don’t break any laws doing so,
you are free to do so
this is America Dammnit.
-end rant.
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Some of us aren’t going to drink from the gun-owners-only water fountain, or sit in the back of the bus, Rob.
I do suggest that if you want to get active in supporting OC, that you join or create organizations like Calguns or VCDL, and that you have a purpose to carrying, and have legal support and plans.
Don’t be a Kwikrnu, and just get yer ass arrested and convicted for bullshit that could have been avoided.
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The cop can’t get out of his car and stand nearby? Criminals avoid police presence. If he was a potential wrongdoer then he would move along, no?
I always thought you are not a criminal until you commit a crime. Maybe you think otherwise.
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In a free country, sometimes bad things happen. If you don’t like it, there are plenty of places on the planet you can move to, where the cops are empowered to stop and search anyone, any time, with or without reason. I’d suggest you’d be happier there.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Also, the OC-er could be a parent with their kid waiting at the bus stop.
Or a psycho carrying concealed could blow out my kid’s brains and no one would know because it was concealed.
If you want to make people criminals before they commit the crime perhaps you should lobby for a “Pre-crime” unit like they had in Minority Report.
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I’m going to add something else.
I don’t open carry. I prefer concealed carry. The state of Connecticut is either/or. But the main reason I don’t OC is that I live in an area where I don’t totally trust my neighbors. Heck, I hate toting range bags to my car because not all people are oblivious. If they think I have guns and they see I’m leaving…
That’s part of it. The other part is that I DON’T want to get approached by police. Because I know I will. My hair is down to my waist. I grow it for charity so I don’t necessarily look like your average gun enthusiast. But the reason I will get approached is probably out of the officer’s ignorance of the law. If it was widely known that CT was an OC state then there would be a minimal amount of calls to the dispatcher. And what the dispatcher should do is ask if the person they see open carrying is drunk, threatening or brandishing his sidearm. And if he’s just walking down the street drinking a chocolate malt the dispatcher should inform the caller that it is legal to open carry in CT, thank you and have a nice day.
But to claim that the Youtubers want only attention I think is a little unfair. Perhaps they want the police to be more aware of the law. Perhaps they want more citizens to be aware that what they do (open carry) is legal. Perhaps they just want attention. And yes, perhaps they are just D-bags. But you cannot deny the fact that if all officers knew the law and realized that they are not allowed to stop and detain someone for doing nothing illegal therefore not approaching an OC-er unless they WERE drunk/acting dangerous then these “extremists” would have NOTHING to post on Youtube.
Cops know their job? No Youtube video. Simple as that. And I don’t care anymore who thumbs down this post.
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And that is your job that I would expect you to do.
Now out here where I live, most of the cops know me. Every Cop that patrols the county knows me and where I live. The cops in the City know me and where I work. There are a few that don’t, but I’m batting 90% here.
From time to time, I open carry. But then again I live in Rural Utah and most every cop I know has seen me open carrying. They don’t need to talk to me because they know I’m the guy at the Gun Store and they listen to me on the Radio. I’m not packing to look for that Cop to come talk to me. I’m in Rural Utah and we have 70 year old ladies packing OC sometimes. No, I’m not kidding. It’s different here because thats the culture. In SLC, it’s 180 degrees different. I would not OC there. Ever. Right or Not. Too many Libtards would call 911. I know of a couple cases where that happened and the LEO Response was overly heavy handed. One included a flying tackle from behind. Again – I’m not kidding. Happened in Liberty Park. The Irony there makes me shake my head.
Last training course I taught out here, we went to Cafe Rio afterwards… I think County and City had a pow-wow there at Cafe Rio and there was like 20 officers and Deputies there. We were waiting outside, guns on hips as they were all filtering out. A couple of them looked us over, but none of them asked me my name or for ID. The guys that knew me told the guys that I don’t know to leave me be. Again – that kind of thing is one of the good reasons to live in a small town and make friends with the LEO’s.
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You don’t “need” to know if he’s a felon. Innocent until proven guilty, remember?
You can’t legally pull someone over solely to check and see if he has a driver’s license, either. You must have cause to stop him. /After/ stopping him, you can investigate to see if he’s licensed to drive.
And yes, you can /ask/ anyone for ID. But I’m most certainly not obligated to present ID, unless I’m operating a motor vehicle. I’m not even obligated to have ID on me if I’m just walking around somewhere.
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LIX/594/594-2.htm
“Questioning and Detaining Suspects. – A peace officer may stop any person abroad whom he has reason to suspect is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime, and may demand of him his name, address, business abroad and where he is going.”
The most an officer can demand of me is that I verbally provide him with the information listed there, and he may only make such a demand if there is reason to suspect that I’m engaged in criminal activity.
The mere presence of a gun is not reason to suspect criminal activity, unless carry is actually, in and of itself, illegal in that state. Which state are you in, by the way?
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Um, no. Checkpoints can be conducted for certain specific purposes, such as intercepting drunk drivers. “Papers please” checkpoints are not lawful.
A dozen US states do not perform checkpoints, at all. Numerous others impose substantial restrictions on their use (for example, here in NH, they must be supported by a court order and be advertised well in advance, and drivers may not be stopped if they safetly turn around when they see that a checkpoint is ahead, nor is there any prohibition against setting up signs or whatnor to alert drivers of a checkpoint).
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Here in CT there was an OC rally at the capital. A memo went out to the officers by their dept chief. It told them they are not allowed to even ASK to see their (the demonstrator’s) permits. As long as they were peacefully assembled.
And that is our law here in this state. And probably others states as well. You are not a criminal until you commit a crime. If you are worried about “potential” criminals then you need to stop and ask everyone because most of us permit holders carry concealed and I guess everyone of us could be a potential criminal. And you won’t know who is carrying until you stop and ask them.
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I’m shocked at your statements here even though I like 99% of this blog. So let’s continue the debate and see if we can learn something. And I’m geniunely interested in your answers. I’m really surprised you think it’s not only okay but proper for cops to question you why you are exercising your God given right.
I’m not talking about being polite. I am very polite and don’t think there is much to be gained by being rude. But you actually want to be stopped by officers and questioned as to why you are walking on the sidewalk packing, because they are your friends. Well we don’t. Is that so bad? I don’t live in a rural area, and I don’t know any cops and they don’t know me. If they stop me because I’m OC’ing, I will comply, but doesn’t change the fact that it’s not cool. And if they detain me, it’s not legal. Why can’t you cops and others who don’t know or care about individual rights understand that simple concept???
If I’m on the sidewalk, can you stop me and ask for ID? Yes!
Am I in my rights to refuse if I’m not committing or in suspicion of committing a crime? Yes!
Is OC legal in the state I live? Yes! Is the fact that I’m OC’ing reason enough to suspect committing a crime? No and Hell No!! That’s the point. The cops on this thread and you MadOgre Sir must have a distrust of anyone openly carrying guns besides yourself.
For myself, when I drive down the freeway and see a tough guy on a Harley OC’ing on the freeway, I think to myself, ah Freedom! Based on previous comments here, you and CTHulhu363 see him driving and you think, Criminal! I should stop him and ask for ID. I’m sorry for the strong words, but that’s pretty pathetic.
You ran for Utah Senate on a platform of Constitutional Carry… I doubt that was just lip service but do you think it would be okay if citizens are stopped a couple times a day by our friends for a chat, and to make sure they can run our ID to check for outstanding warrants? As a public service of course.
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Talking to you is not detaining you.
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Yes it’s not illegal to stop me and talk to me. But again, why? Because the lens you and your cop friend looks through is warped, in my opinion.
You view everyone who carries a weapon a criminal and is to be treated with suspicion until proven otherwise. So you go over and stop them from going about their business and talk to (interrogate) them. Both admitted that is what you do and advocate to do in previous posts.
Never mind that a criminal would never OC to begin with, so c’mon!
The real problem is that we all don’t exercise our rights enough. If everyone OC’d, the cops would actually know the law and respect it. People would not be shocked at the sight of it and would be better educated as to other’s rights.
But as of now, Average Joe is shocked to see the gun, Sgt Joe feels obligated to investigate the gun, and GI Joe can’t believe that someone else has the audacity besides himself to wear a gun.
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Talking to me is not detaining me, you’re right. But what happens if I’m not in the mood to talk to you back? You can ask me for my ID, but if I’m not driving, I don’t have to carry one. Can I leave? If not, then yes, you are detaining me and by the way, at that moment, the detention is illegal because I’m not in suspicion of committing a crime.
I do not practice this, and don’t advocate youtuber’s from trying to entrap cops. But I don’t advocate cops hassling OC’ers either, and in most instances, breaking the law while doing it.
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So if you see someone driving, you are going to check and see if they are legal? You are going to be busy! Sorry, but there seems to be a different mentality on the gun issue here. A cop is welcome anytime to talk to me, but something doesn’t ring true here with the thinking. A little prejudice.
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It’s nothing like a driver’s license, at least not where I live. The law requires I present my license and registration when detained while driving. You still have to have a reason for pulling me over before you can demand that information. On foot? No such requirement where I live. You can ask all day long, but you don’t have the authority to demand my ID, especially if there is no reason to believe I’ve committed a crime.
As for checking to make sure I’m not a felon, you have to have a reason to suspect that I might be a felon *before* you detain me for investigation. The mere presence of an openly carried firearm, where legal, does not rise to the level of reasonable suspicion. *That’s* the law. Obey it.
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Here in NH, there’s an obligation to carry ID, even when carrying concealed. Nor even a copy of your CCW.
If the cop believes you are carrying unlawfully, it’s up to him to find evidence of that, not up to you to prove your innocence.
If he had RAS to support the notion that you were not licensed to carry concealed, he could demand that you tell him your name and address, and then call your local police department to find out if they have a license recorded under that name (the state government is prohibited from having any statewide database of CCW licenses, so checks have to be made directly to the appropriate department). Once he had a report that there was a license assigned to that name/address combination, his RAS would have evaporated, unless he had some other (reasonable) cause to believe that you were lying when you gave that information.
“Well, it’s theoretically possible that he might have been” is not cause. So, unless you make a practice of behaving in a way that a reasonable person would believe meant you were engaging in criminal activity, there’s no need to have an ID. Reasonable people don’t believe that the presence of a gun is indicative of criminal activity, so there would need to be something more.
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I had this big long response written out, but my phone erased it. To sum it up, Flint you are absolutely 100% wrong about case law regarding “investigative detention” and Terry stops. Being a dick to a cop never advanced a cause, look at OWS. Dont use their tactics. Study the case law, ask the cops you disrespect so much.
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You must be using T-Mobile.
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You’re claiming that you can detain someone without reasonable, articulable suspicion of a crime? Care to actually cite some caselaw that would reverse that long-standing precedent?
And no, I would not ask a cop for legal advice. If there was something that was over my skill level with the law, I would either ask my attorney, or write a letter to the NH Attorney General asking for a clarification (which has the added benefit that, if I reasonably rely upon it, it is an automatic defense against prosecution, even if the AG is found to have been wrong).
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Field questions is not detention. And asking someone who they are is in a cops line of duty.
You want cite case law that proves otherwise?
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/Asking/ is, as I have noted, no issue. Anyone can walk up to anyone else, and ask any question. But if the recipient of that question does not answer, that’s the end of it.
The issue is those cops who imagine that they can /demand/ answers, and refuse to let someone carry on his business if he does not answer them to their personal satisfaction. That’s a detention, and there are specific requirements for a detention.
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And sorry if this bothers anyone (and I know it will). But an officer asking to see ID when the person is doing nothing but enjoying the day or minding their own business has a remote resemblance to an SS officer asking to see your papers.
Commence the thumbs down!
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I “thumbs up”ed your comment! ;)
It’s the basest of resemblences. In both cases you are asked to produce identification “just because” and it IS “just because”. It’s legal to eat ice cream in front of an ice cream parlor. Carrying OC in a state that permits it is the same as the first example. Both are equally legal. But the cop isn’t going to ask to see your ID for eating ice cream. In either circumstance he shouldn’t ask at all.
If the OC’er were looking at people with squinty eyes occasionally going “What are you looking at?” or “Keep looking at me if you want to see what happens next” then by all means Mr. officer, ask them for their ID. But if you are acting totally normal then you should not be approached. I don’t see why others find that difficult to agree with.
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110!
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(Sacramento Bee 8/31/12) Open display of unloaded rifles in public would be banned in California under legislation sent to Gov. Jerry Brown on Wednesday.
Assembly Bill 1527 cleared the Legislature when the Assembly concurred in amendments, 43-30.
The measure extends an existing “open carry” law that applies to handguns. AB 1527 would not bar possession in unincorporated areas or at a private business, or on private property. Unloaded rifles also could be carried in a vehicle’s rack.
Some gun-owning Californians have encouraged open display of firearms in recent years as evidence of their constitutional right to bear arms and as a protest against government gun-control laws.
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Cthulhu363 says: if I see a guy open carry, I’m going to talk to the guy. I need to know if that person is a felon and is allowed to. It’s the exact same as a drivers license, I need to know if you can legally drive that car.
I respect law enforcement, but your bias is showing. You don’t stop every person you see getting in a car and check their ID. So it isn’t the same. You have a built in prejudice. I prefer concealed, but a person has every right to open carry without the bias. I have no problem with you stopping me anytime, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn’t make it right. This is basically a repeat of my previous comment, but it wasn’t clear and didn’t get posted after the referenced comment.
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That’s a very good point, HK.
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