Defense against the Dark Arts

So many people out there wringing their hands about gun control again.  These poor frightened, misguided idiots.  I’d like to slap the shit out of all of them… because it’s people like them that have lead us to where we are now as a nation now that has incidents like these.  I blame the Shooter for doing the evil deed, but I blame Liberals for creating the environments where these things can happen.

This Theater that the Colorado incident happened, was a Gun Free Zone.  Trolley Square, was at the time of the shooting spree there, a Gun Free Zone.  Columbine High School, a Gun Free Zone.  Every place these Shootings happen – they are in Gun Free Zones or in Cities where the Police actively harass Legal Gun Owners who are Legally Carrying their Guns.  Places where Guns are accepted – These things don’t happen.  You Create a Gun Free Zone, you INVITE this sort of thing to happen there.  Because these Psychos are not going to do this at a GUN SHOW – where I am sorry but the “No Loaded Gun Signs” are disregarded by damn near everyone with a CCW Permit.

Just one guy could have offered some resistance and could have stopped this event from going on like it did… One guy could have cut this spree short like the incident a few years ago at Trolley Square in SLC. The argument against an Armed Citizen Response is that the CCW Holder could have hit someone else.  Well, yeah, that’s true… by Accident.  Because the Evil Psycho Shooter sure as hell wasn’t hitting anyone by accident.   This becomes a War of Good vs Evil here… collateral damage does have it’s risks.  But evil isn’t stopped by running away from it.  Evil is stopped when Good Men (or women) stand up against it.

The incident in Florida where one 71 year old guy stopped two thugs who had evil purposes… He fought back and no innocent people were injured.  None.  This old guy is a Hero.  He was armed.  He was not afraid.  He took action.  Right or Wrong – Taking Action is the right thing to do.  Rolling over and taking one in the back of the head does no one any good but the Evil Doer.  It serves his purposes…. that’s why he was there.

The Cops responded as fast as they could.  We can not shake a finger at them.  They are always behind the 8-Ball in things like this because they have to respond to the call.  See, Bad Guys generally don’t do Bad Things right in front of Cops who could put a stop to them.  Sometimes they are stupid enough to do this… but generally they try to avoid cops.  So Police have to go to where the action is and then try to stop it.  Usually they get there after the fact…. after innocent people have been killed.  Also, the US Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no obligation to protect you.  This means you are responsible for your own safety and the safety of your loved ones.  You are the one that must make that stand in the face of Evil.  No one else is going to do that for you.

Taking away guns from Good People only serves the purposes of Evil People.  Even if the Evil People had no Guns… they would have used other means.  IED’s are very popular in many places in this world now.  Knives.  Hammers.  Clubs.  If an Evil Person wants to kill – he will.  He could have just got a big heavy truck and rammed into the line of people waiting to get into the movie.  But because he used firearms – Liberal Idiots are making this to be a Gun issue.  It’s not a Gun Issue – it’s an EVIL issue.  We already have laws against Evil Acts… fat lot of good they are doing, eh?  Killing innocent people is already against the law, is it not?

The fact of the matter is that Guns Save Lives.  Dr. John Lott’s book “More Guns, Less Crime” should be required reading in every school as soon as the children are old enough to read.

47 thoughts on “Defense against the Dark Arts”

  1. I wish more people were of like minds in this area You are so right. Perhaps if more people who thought like this ran for offices we could make a change. As it is I see far more laws comming into play making it harder and harder for us to protect ourselves.If more people carried guns criminals would think twice about doing bad things since most of them don’t want to die and the ones that do hey well your helping them acompish this goal without anyone else getting hurt.

      1. just going by what someone on a firearms forum said – he claims to live 3 miles from there, visits 2 or 3 times/month, and carries every time.

        Your message is spot-on, Ogre – I’m not disagreeing.

        1. Cinemark corporate policy. He may not have noticed any posting, but they do have them. Plus Aurora has a city wide ban on CC(don’t know if it’s legal in the face of CO shall issue).

          1. It’s not legal.

            Portland does the same crap. The fine is trivial, because they know if it is appealed, they will lose.

  2. I had a two hour conversation with a coworker about gun control. I could prove every one of his points to be incorrect and not practical. Lawbreakers will break laws by definition. It is the way it is. Law abiding citizens should be able to purchase and carry any firearm in any configuration that they want,…anywhere.

  3. The cops in Aurora responded using the old and completely obsolete standard that got a bunch of students killed at Columbine.

    They formed a perimeter and waited for the SWAT team to arrive.

    The active shooter, once he got bored with killing people, walked out of the theater and surrendered to them.

    The only effective way to respond to an active shooter is to charge his position and shoot him. And yes, this might cost some cops their lives.

    ANY deviation from an active shooter’s mental script for the event will shut him down.

    1. Recheck the info. Time lines are showing 1st officer on scene and going in less than TWO MINUTES after 1st 911 calls. Less than 6 minutes after 1st call Perp was in custody. After Columbine Law enforcement has moved to instant response to active shooter. If you believe the SWAT team could be called in , geared up and be on scene in 6 minutes . . . . In that two minutes from first 911 call, that officer heard the dispatch, had to drive through a packed parking lot while not running over fleeing pedestrians, enter the building once again getting through a panicked crowd fleeing,find out which theater the shooting was occurring in, and get to then enter that theater. And do not forget that officer would have been relaying all the info he /she was getting over the radio for other units responding. Your lack of job knowledge is obvious

      1. Six minutes after the first call, the perp walked out of the theater and surrendered to police. The Police DID NOT GO INTO THE THEATER.

        SWAT could not be there in six minutes. But the police that were working crowd control cold have.

        They followed procedure, and allowed an active killer more than five minutes alone with a crowd. But, since they followed procedure, not a single cop’s life was at risk.

        Yay.

        1. The perp was captured in his car and you need to seek a proctologist to remove your cranium from your fourth point of contact. Police were on the scene in less than 2 minutes from first call. Would suggest you see Two Minute Warning and THINK how long it would take to drive from the road to the theater in a fleeing crowd with out running them over, then get into that complex going upstream against the same outward flow. Add to that relaying info about where other officers need to go , medical info about wounded, all while trying to find a perp without getting shot. Good sir your ignorance is colossal

          1. The perp was captured after the fact. Period. No amoun t of excuse making will change that.

            Yes, I’m sure the Aurora police had good excuses for not going in there. Confronting a fully prepared active killer without a fully armed SWAT team might have gotten cops killed.

            Of course, the folks inside, especially the ones who threw themselves at the killer to prevent relatives from dying could have used some help … but hey, life’s a bitch.

          2. There was a mass shooting earlier in Aurora that did not go as planned:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sKQl-Qp5W0&feature=player_embedded

            What is driving me nuts here is institutionalized cowardice. Individual officers are plenty brave … but rules created by administrators who are horribly risk averse cause crap like this, or the Columbine massacre.

            Waiting for SWAT gets victims killed.

            ANY interruption of an active killer causes him to either shut down, or turn his attention to the police instead of harvesting more victims.

          3. Kristopher you have not understood a single thing. Even though in a battle of wits you are unarmed , I will try one more time. from 1st shots ,caller finds phone in the dark under fire,911 is called , phone rings , phone is answed, “911 what is your emergency?’ reply, shots fired at cinema ! Call taker then advises dispatcher, more than one call would have been coming in. Dispatcher would be airing information to any car that could respond. THERE IS THE FIRST MINUTE OF RESPONSE.
            Minute TWO First car at cinema is responding thru parking lot with no discripion of perp, no idea of how many involved, other responding officers tryng to get on the radio, the 911 center trying to relay info from callers,get squads rolling, in terms for idiots: total chaos.

            Minute 3 thru 6 entry into cinema, perimiter established, perp captured. Now if you still belive that was “waiting for SWAT” then go back to your computer games and stay in the basement. Those first officers on the scene had more Cajones then you could ever dream of.

          4. And there is the problem.

            “perimeter established”.

            While people are dying inside.

            I congratulate the Aurora PD at their successful risk aversion.

            And don’t bother trying to hit me with cops are at risk guilt … if my life is on the line then such cops are useless to me or my family.

            I understand exactly what you have said. I just think it is institutionalized cowardice, and will continue to call it such.

            You may continue to make “head up your ass” and “unarmed in a battle of wits” insults, instead of addressing the problem of forming perimeters when people are dying. I’m done with you.

        2. The 1st officer DID GO IN so back to your mommys basement an enjoy watching your life story when “The 40 year old virgin” is on

  4. I agree with all of the above. I think also that David Grossman is correct in his statement of how to stop and hopefully how to deter such attacks. Armed people everywhere like in Israel … or Florida or Texas. Armed nutjobs often do not fear death, especially the islamic fanatic ones. But, they do fear failure. They don’t want to die in a futile attack. To their mind, attacking a place where someone might shoot back is more likely to result in failure, in being stopped before they shoot a lot of helpless people.
    Which is why places like this, like Virginia Tech, like Columbine get attacked and not my club’s IDPA match, or the police station, or a gun show.

  5. What I want to know is, when is the Government going to ban motor vehicles? These trucks and cars are killing and maiming people everyday, all over the country. They’re evil I tell ya. They have no conscience or regard for human life. Don’t get me started on the hand tools out in my garage, my wife’s sewing needles or even my son’s colored pencils. Tools, all of them. Just like every firearm ever made!

  6. CS gas, body armor, guy with rifle and a shotgun. I don’t like the odds of a concealed handgun versus that, but it is certainly better than nothing, though the argument that one person could have saved everyone is a bit far-fetched.

    Unfortunately, this isn’t just a liberal vs. conservative thing. I have seen an depressing number of urban conservatives that are fine with a lot of so-called reasonable gun laws. I have also seen a fair number of rural democrats that don’t care for gun control. Personally, I would like to see society react to anti-gun bigots the same way they act towards racists and other similar bigots.

    1. The only thing relevant in that list of equipment, in terms of protecting him from an armed defender, is the body armor. Which only illustrates that you should not carry a mousegun. If you get hit while wearing armor, every foot-pound of energy is still transferred to your body; the armor only prevents penetration. So, as long as the cartridge/firearm combination is one that delivers a meaningful amount of energy, the wearer is still going to absorb the equivalent of a football tackle (the reason it does not knock the shooter down is that the bullet accelerates along the length of the barrel, but the impact is absorbed within a fraction of an inch).

      Armor or no, if you shoot him, he’s down and injured. If he tries to get up, you shoot him again. Two or three rounds like that, and he’s not getting back up until he gets medical care. Or, if he’s on enough drugs to try, then you’re now close enough to make a head-shot easy.

      1. “Armor or no, if you shoot him, he’s down and injured” Umm..NO.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg
        That’s a .308 from a rifle that can’t knockdown a man standing on 1 foot. It’s Newton’s first law and it is just as irrefutable as gravity. Unless you’re CC’ing an actual cannon, aint gonna happen.

        1. We’re talking about the actual body armor used by the actual shooter, not overlapping plate armor, and someone who’s expecting the shot.

          If two football players engage and start shoving each other, neither goes down. If you tackle someone who’s moving, he does, because he’s not perfectly balanced when he gets hit.

          If someone comes clanking in wearing armor like that, and stands perfectly still while shooting, you’ll just have to go for the head shot. Fortunately, if he’s standing perfectly still, the head shot should be easy.

          1. Cops get shot in their “soft” armor all the time and stay standing. I know 2, and am related to one(all lucky enough to be hit in the vest, though they know guys hit in the arms/legs/pelvis that weren’t so lucky). From all accounts it is a nasty sting, with the pain setting in much later when the bruising starts. No handgun round has enough force to knock you down. And the armor used by the theater shooter included arm/leg/groin protection, likely not your average “undershirt” vest.

          2. @TheIrishman:

            What sort of round were they hit with, and was it a straight-on hit, or at an angle? Did they get hit by the first round, or did they already know they were taking fire?

      2. Getting hit by shotguns did not affect the North Hollywood shooters. I am not going to carry a shotgun everywhere. CC’rs cannot and will not stop every attack even in the panacea of our minds.

        The act of shooting back is what will stop the common criminal. Common criminals (FL internet cafe robbers)want to live to do crime another day.

        Mass shooters do not usually intend on living through the situation. They are usually cowards and then take their own lives when confronted.

        Either way the shear act of armed confrontation is the act that will stop the aggression.

        With that said I would not counterattack with plastic seats for cover(concealment) against a shotgun and rifle. My responcibility is to my family and self. I am not a hero. If (when I was lying on the floor )the shooter came up the isles, then it would be time for me to come to action. Mousegun or not.

        If the shooter used CS (all that I have read was “gas canisters” so I don’t know if they were just smoke) I could not see well enough to do headshots anyway.

        1. The first North Hollywood shooter was put down by a cop that got close enough to bust a cap in his face.

          The second one had both his ankles shot off by two SWAT members who shot at him from behind and under the vehicle he had tried to hijack.

    2. Let’s see, a packed theater that seats several hundred in CO and no one had a gun? Somehow I doubt that, no matter what the city laws are. It’s just that nobody chose to use theirs and they’re sure as hell not admitting it right now. Would you?

      That being said, even a full sized 10mm pistol doesn’t have much of a chance of being effective against an adrenaline-hyped, armored opponent in a dark theater filled with fleeing people and CS. Depending on where you are in a modern movie theater the ranges could be pretty rough too and the penalty for missing is very high.

  7. First off, what a sad waste of lives. This guy knew exactly what he was doing and where to instill maximum fear in his victims. I do believe if 1 or 2 CCW holders took action (I don’t believe that anyone could identify him wsearing body armor or even see what weapons he was carrying) things would’ve turned out much differently. These types of people feed on fear and fuels their desire to continue on, but when faced with equal resistance will snap them back into reality and feel fear themselves.

    I was watching the evening news and the reporter stressed that the shooter legally bought all of his firearms and no red flags were raised on the 4473 kinda hinting that the gun buying process is seriously flawed because it isn’t thorough enough. I’m thinking that this shooting will be used as an example that “instant” backround checks aren’t good enough and of course something must be done about it. I wonder if part of the NICS check will include checking social media for extremeism or other “questionable behavior” to warrant a denial.

    1. No amount of record checks will prevent a schizophrenic who has just gone off the deep end from buying a firearm. Especially one that is smart enough to hide his delusions from the public.

      Apparently his mother knew he was losing it, but he hadn’t acted out enough to get committed.

    2. That active shooter in Sweden not only passed record checks, but had also gone through an extremely thorough training and vetting process to get his weapons.

      He then ordered high cap magazines over the internet, keeping his buys below $150 to avoid triggering the us ITAR regs.

    3. THE GUY WAS WEARING BODY ARMOR. Please, idiots, STOP SAYING THAT SOMEONE WITH A GUN COULD HAVE STOPPED THE SHOOTER!!! Unless someone had body armor penetrating bullets, which are illegal, the shooter wasn’t going to be stopped!

      1. Body armor is not a golden shield. If I ever have to shoot someone I suspect is in armor, head shots if time to aim otherwise its leg and ankle shots. Its almost impossible to find leg armor outside a full bomb suit. Even the calif bank robbers didn”t have foot armor, thats how the LAPD cut him down. Remember, when ambushed, ATTACK!

      2. He had body armor, not a personal forcefield. It covers specific areas, only. Put half a dozen rounds into his torso, then shoot him in the head while he’s distracted.

        Body armor only provides magical protection in the movies. In real life, it’s designed to possibly save your life, not to let you keep fighting while taking hits.

      3. In response to the attitude that he was wearing armor so shooting him was pointless that I’ve seen here and elsewhere. First off all these other responses are dead on, there are many weak points to aim for. Several folks returning fire could have at least slowed and confused him. All body armor isn’t the same and unless it was 3A or above me, and others with 357 SIG or good +p+ 9, 44 or good 10mm could have penetrated. Like I said enough hits would have slowed him down, confused, and perhaps even found his head or a soft spot. Better than dying on the floor after waiting for him to come to you.

      4. And exactly how would the cops have stopped him if they had actively gone after him?

        Perhaps they would have used guns?

        Three cops with guns fired the rounds that stopped the North Hollywood massacre robbers.

  8. Nice in theory, but not in practice. Most people aren’t clammering for the laws to be changed so that responsible gun owners cannot own and carry guns. What is needed are stricter gun laws that stop someone from stockpiling weapons and ammunition over a short period of time. Access to guns is entirely too easy. Access to bullets is too easy. Records show that the shooter in the Aurora, Colorado movie theater incident stockpiled ammunition over the course of a year. Revising the law so that people have to get a National Gun Permit that must be presented every time in order to purchase a firearm and / or ammunition would certainly help track people who have suspicious behavior. It wouldn’t eliminate mass shootings altogether, but it would certainly help reduce the number of them that take place.

    So, gun activists need to take a step back and shut the hell up. Realize that gun laws are way too lax in this country, and that it is time for change. Taking away guns isn’t the answer, but the current gun regulations aren’t the answer, either.

    1. You are so wrong on so many levels. You sir, are neither independent or thinking. You are making an emotional knee jerk reaction to the event rather than looking at the actual facts of the case.

      In your world all these shootings would be stopped by cops even if they had no guns. Mere law enforcement presence stops bad guys. You are wrong. Cops stop these shooting because they have guns. It’s the GUN and not the BADGE that stops evil.

      Take away the BADGE… You still have the means to stop evil. And most of the Gun Owners that I know, practice their marksmanship more than most of the Law Enforcement Officers that I know.

    2. Yeah, because no /criminal/ would then simply /steal/ guns and ammunition, or anything…

      Laws only affect the law-abiding.

    3. Independent? … Thinker? … now that’s funny right there!

      I would respond but you seem pretty committed to misunderstanding gun owners. I shall not disturb your quest.

      1. There should be no gun laws… period.

        The Second Amendment doesn’t have any “unless…” clause at the end.

  9. @ Independant Thinker; Stuff it. the last bunch I want counting the rounds in my stash is FED.GOV. One of the reasons I reload is I cast bullets, not just for maximum savings, but the feds can’t track wheel-wieghts.

  10. The bottom line here is that there are some of us who have no desire to squirm on the floor and pray a bullet doesn’t strike us. We want to be able to take charge of our own destiny like true Americans and return fire. We want to have the means to put down Death Lovers who would destroy our friends and family in front of our eyes.

    This doesn’t mean we have a hero complex or that we have unrealistic expectations of what it means to draw a gun on an armed lunatic. We remember Mark Wilson, the CHL holder who died attempting to stop a savage armed with an AK and wearing body armor. There’s a good chance that if someone with a concealed handgun had been in the Aurora Cinemark they would have died, but at least they would have died standing up to evil, and perhaps saved lives in the process.

    I spit in the face of the cowards and fools who would neuter the Second Amendment. We don’t all have to be the courageous one who stands up to evil, but at least our forefathers tried to give us that option. Don’t try to take away the right from your fellow citizens to live and defend their lives as they see fit and as they have been granted in the United States Constitution.

    1. “Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say “what should be the reward of such sacrifices?” Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!”
      Samuel Adams, Philadelphia, 1776

      There are no certainties in life. All you get to choose, is how you live with what the world hands you…

  11. Never, Ever, submit to tyranny even unto death. Those who survive you depend on your steadfastness to give pause to those who would take your life and your liberty. Your life is worth a great deal but your resistance, even unto death may be worth a great deal more. Stand fast friend. Strike hard in the name of freedom. Commit yourself to a cause greater than yourself.

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