More .40 thoughts again.

I’ve had some discussions at the Gun Counter where I work, about the .40.  Most of my Co-Workers are Die Hard .45 fans.  And that’s fine.  I’m a .45 fan myself.  But the .40 is no slouch when comes to the Defensive Power Factor.  The Defensive Power Factor gives some more insight into why I like the .40.    Looking at the Winchester PDX1 loads to give a more even playing field… going heavy for caliber.

.40 PDX1 180 Grains at 968 FPS =  DPF:  69.69.

.45 PDX1 230 Grains at 882 FPS =  DPF: 91.2.

9mm PDX1 147 Grains at 954 FPS = DPF: 49.78.

Looking at the Defensive Power Factor, it shows the .45 is indeed the potent one.  As we all knew.  And the .40 falls in line where we thought.  Now here’s the deal… the .45 advocates insist that the average defensive shooting is 2 rounds.  1.5 to be precise.  So to them, the shorter round count is not a problem.  Well, that’s not me.  The US Army taught me to prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.  So I’m going to pack more rounds when I have that option. I’m not planning on getting into a shooting.  But I’m also not planning on firing twice and then stopping and then waiting to see what happens.  I’m going to shoot to stop the threat.  And that might mean giving them a whole magazine.

A typical .45 Mag with 8+1 rounds gives a .45 pistol a total DPF load of 820.8.

A typical .40 mag… Glock 22, 15+1, gives your .40 a total of 1115.04.

Typical 9mm Glock 17 magazine, 17+1 gives that 9mm a total of 896.04.  That’s actually even better than the .45!  I can see why the 9mm is popular with shooters… But even the vaunted “more shots in the magazine” argument kinda feels stale now.

These numbers paint a different picture in my mind.  I am looking at these figures and I see that .40 is no longer just the Middle Man… but a jack of all trades, Multi-Role Fighter.  This is one of the reasons the .40 enjoys so much popularity with Johnny Law.  And with Ogres.  You can keep your .45 Autos… and your 9mm’s.  I’ll stick with my .40 calibers… thanks.

 

75 thoughts on “More .40 thoughts again.”

  1. Where in DPF does the 9mm shooter having 43.7% more rounds down range factor in?

    Midway USA has 50rds of Winchester white box for $22.99 for .40 and $15.99 for 9mm. Using Berry’s bullets you can still shoot 33% more with 9mm.

    In my response to your last post I conceded that if my choice is between a gun and 2 mags I want a .40. But if my choice is involves a center-fire training budget, you can’t beat a 9mm.

    As for how many rounds it actually takes, the best collection of data I have been able to find is at http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866.

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation

    9mm Luger = 2.45
    .40 S&W = 2.36
    .45 ACP = 2.08

    And unless you can tell me how to fire .08 of a round… Those all equal 3.

    That gives a .90% accurate shooter with a 1911, 2 stops; with a .40, 4 stops; and with a 9mm, 5 stops.

    I really do like debates and there may not be a better gun debate than caliber for the following reasons…

    * There is a bunch of data that can be quoted
    * There are so many variables at play that nearly all of the data is refutable based on the scenario
    * It is a decision we bet our life on

    Here are the 3 main facts though…

    1) All Pistol Calibers SUCK! If you need a gun you want a long gun.
    2) All Guns are better than harsh words or a sharp stick
    3) All pistols/calibers are a collection of compromises

    You need to decide that compromises you are willing to make.

    1. You make good points.
      So if it takes 3 rounds per threat – I’d rather have more rounds in my mag than .45… but I still want a heavier load than a 9. So I’m back in the .40 zone.
      And yes, all pistol calibers are only until I can grab my shotgun.

      1. Recomend “Terror at Beslan” which calls the shotgun an obsolete weapon system. If it is a social meltdown, open with a full tube, but transition to a rifle quick.

        1. It would take way more than another book or someone else’s rehashed opinion to convince me that the shotgun is obsolete. I don’t see it no matter how many operations the Russians manage to bungle or who collates their testimonies.
          The shotgun has been pronounced dead or useless more times than I can calculate. None of those sage declarations have had an effect on what shotguns can or can’t do.
          When it comes to shutting someone down immediately, few things can do it with the heavy finality of a 12 bore. This is not changed by blame-juggling Russians or the standardization of telescoped semi-caseless SABOT rounds for recoil-dampened carbines covered in rails.
          Calling the shotgun obsolete is like calling the fist obsolete.

          (I really like shotguns)

          1. Notice I suggested “open with a full tube”. I was not refering to a Glenfield 60 22 cal. The shotgun is slow to reload and limited range. Personally would prefer not to have bad guys that close. Terror at Beslan by John Giduck is recomended reading for anyone who want insight into the level of evil of SOME of those who oppose us. It is not whitewash by a Russian apologist, but a very professional objective breakdown of a tragic terrorist attack that could happen again

          1. See there, we do agree about somethings! LOL

            I think knowing how to run a shotgun is more important for a civilian than knowing how to run a rifle.

          2. I did not read “terror at beslan”. But if the russians think the shotgun is obsolete because it didn’t work well in a school gym with 1000 adult and child hostages, then they need to learn how to choose the appropriate weapons system for the mission. Yes, I made assumptions here. Now, back to pistol power.

          3. M read the book then you will understand. For shotgun to work one must be close. Johnny Jihad with an AK can keep the best shotgun out of effective range.

          4. Shotguns can go all the way to 200 yards. And I’ve stretched that range to 300… But with less consistency. A human sized target a 200 though, is dead meat.

  2. The only thing that I have to say is that you really short-changed the .45ACP by implying that the pistols only come in 8 round magazines! I know that a USP holds 12 rounds, I believe the Glock equivalent holds about the same…but I would go out on a limb and say that just about every polymer .45ACP will hold at least 10 rounds, plus 1 in the chamber and IMO that right there would pretty much even things out with the .40S&W in a fully loaded full sized pistol.

      1. I went to double stack .45s about 8-9 years ago. Used to HATE how they felt in my hands, now single stacks feel weird.

      2. I understand, but what you sell and what’s out there are different things. I’m sure that there are plenty of Glock 21 owners who carry 13+1 rounds (even the 30 holds 10+1 rounds) but what good is capacity if you can only get off 1-2 rounds before/while you are getting knocked to the ground or backed up to a wall. In a “perfect” encounter you will have time, space, lighting and distance to defend yourself but reality will more than likely be different. So, if you can only get off 1-2 rounds then what makes a 14+ round magazine worth more than even the 6-8 round capacity pistols that you sell?

    1. Indeed. My Springfield (PX9707L) holds 13+1 with the factory magazine. Or 14+1 if I put a standard Para magazine in it (Springfield designed it to accept Para mags). Or 15+1, if I get an extended magazine. I hear tell that some folks make even larger magazines.

      Even with the factory 14 rounds, that bumps the “total” DPF to 1276.8 If I were to get an extended magazine, that would be heading towards 1500…

      I actually don’t have anything against the .40 – the quality of the pistol and its other features far outweigh the difference between .40 and .45…

    2. I think an interesting comparison would be the Glock 19, 23 and 30 as the G30 is close to the same size as the 19/23. If you do the math on those three, the G30 with 11 rounds “wins” over the 16 and 14 rounds of the 19 and 23. That said, I carry a G23 and I’m not going to run out and trade it. They’re all about the same to me.

  3. The problem for me is that most “modern” pistols come with double stack magazines. Now days a 1911 with a flat mainspring housing and thin grips gives me a more comfortable grip and more consistent accuracy than the double stack stuff available in 9mm,.40, or .45, with the possible exception being the Browning High Power at 13 rounds, which is not exactly a modern pistol anymore. If they made a singe stack .40 S&W with a 4 to 5 inch barrel with out that slide widening breech lock set up (Pedersen) I’d consider it. Also if they good fairy would strike and made a decent .40 carbine….

  4. All of the “one shot stop”, “average Number of shots until stop”, etc., what have you, and so on “statistics” are nothing but a bunch of crap. Meaningless numbers thrown together in such a way as to imply correlation where there is none.

    Unless the “statistics” include where the bullet struck, the depth of penetration, nature of the wound channel, angle of penetration, range to the target, the target’s physiological condition, and countless other variables, there is no way to create any useful basis for comparison. There are simply too many variables.

    Everyone carries the gun they like to carry the most and then rationalizes the decision. It doesn’t matter if the gun is a nice 1911 or a stock Glock or, in my case, a magnum revolver. No one carries a gun he feels is inadequate for his defensive purposes. Some people like big magazines. Some people like big bore diameters. Some people like both and hopefully have big hands.

    The .40 round was designed by bureaucrats for FBI agents who couldn’t handle the 10mm. It’s a perfectly serviceable round but really doesn’t do anything the 9mm doesn’t, except cost more. But 9mm is a little European round and big tough Americans like big handgun rounds. The .40 isn’t actually big, but you can fit it in smaller guns than .45 and it doesn’t kick like 10mm. If nothing else, it’ll penetrate barriers better than 9mm by virtue of having heavier bullets. But I’m willing to bet if you picked a bunch of 9mm and .40 slugs out of dead bodies you’d have a hard time telling which one was which.

    And personally, I never worry about magazine capacity. I usually have 10 rounds of .38 or 18 rounds of .44. Less than the capacity of a single magazine of many pistols. I’ve been told I’m “not serious”. I’ve been told I should “get a Glock”. I’ve been told in “going to get killed”.

    Despite all that, I manage to survive. LOL

    George, I can’t bash the Glock .40…much. They both work well enough. And you certainly do good work with them. I do wish, however, that the Mad Ogre would have settled on a handgun more interesting and less…pedestrian…than the Glock .40. A 10mm. A custom gun of some kind. Something less “Federal Agent” and more “Mad Ogre of the Uintahs”. But that’s just me. I believe that style counts. LOL

    1. It is a good thing that a revolver can fire with a scumbag pressed against the muzzle. Most autos back out of battery and won’t go bang.

    2. Hey, my Glock is the rare and elusive RTF2, with lots of custom work… That doesn’t count?

      *looks at ground*
      I know…

  5. But how do the flat small compact pistols we carry here in FL compare? Geoff Who finds the SWaMPy 9c too thick.

  6. Back in ye olde days when the Texas Dept. of Public Safety (Highway Patrol and such) transitioned from .357 Mag revolvers to pistols their was sorrow and tears from the old timers. My CHL instructor was retired for DPS and he’d wax nostalgic about the .357 mag.
    If I’d played with grip fillers or aftermarket grips I might have gone with the .357 but an out of the box revolver of the times just didn’t feel right to me. I’ve met more than a few that have seen the elephant that don’t feel under gunned with the revolver. As for worrying about my 1911 not working when shoved into someones belly, they trained me in three methods to prevent muzzle to flesh contact. As one deputy told me, “I’m overweight,out of shape,and past 40, and I’m serving warrants on guys under 30, just out of prison were they’ve been on the weight bench and practicing pistol takeaways. I’m not wrestling with them.”

  7. My comments pertain to civilian personal defense as that is my situation and in no way pertain to a military context where small unit tactics and multiple assailants at varying ranges are expected. The late Col. Cooper said, “Diligencia, Vis, Celeritas.”. Accuracy, power, speed. ‘Nuff said. Caliber debates are window dressing to the central theme of armed personal defense. Thank God, I have never had to fire a gun in anger or defense of my life but my understanding of this subject is that two rounds to the chest and one to the head has a significant deterrent effect regardless of caliber. Even the smallest of handguns would still give me two or three more shots to decide the issue before a reload or transition to another weapon or tactic.

  8. The IDPA Power Factor is a simple formula based on the momentum of a bullet. Recoil is caused by conservation of momentum so in competition this make some sense: If recoil affects a shooters score then a measure of momentum is a useful quantity to categorize guns for a more equitable contest. However, physics does not explain how multiplying a measure of momentum by bullet diameter converts a competitive classification into a measure of effectiveness in a defensive shooting. You might as well multiply your golf handicap by your SAT score.

  9. Mathematically, I think the differences between modern 9mm, .40, and .45 are statistical noise (velocity, power factor, weight, size, etc.). Except magazine capacity. And I don’t care how well I can shoot paper targets, if I’m ever forced to fire in the dark at multiple targets that are moving, seeking cover, and shooting back, magazine capacity trumps all.

    Having said that, I carry a SIG P229 in .40. But I am smitten with CZs in 9mm and would trade “down” if I had the opportunity.

      1. Magazine capacity, reliability and shootability trumps all – in the major calibers. And that right there negates ANYTHING from Kel-Tec.

        1. I have a P11 that holds 12 in the mag and 1 in the pipe… that goes bang every time and hits where it points that would like to have a word with you.

          Jim

          1. Well, to be fair, Kel-Tec is known for having lower out-of-the-box quality control than some other manufacturers.

            The flip side of that, though, is that they are known for having an excellent warranty/repair department. I’ve never had to send one in, but those who have, tell me that they usually get the gun back with extra polishing, fitting, etc. work done to it, beyond what was necessary to fix whatever failure existed. Seems their policy is to let a few slip out, but to make sure that, if a gun comes back, they never see that particular gun again…

  10. As has already been said where you put the bullet counts. What the target is wearing counts. So anything that aids in dealing with these issues counts.

    I think its true that many guys have a gun that they are psychologically connected with but if push came to shove, they can’t manipulate under stress, low light, etc. They put a few boxes down range every few months, oil it and then call it good.

    I believe there are others who have allowed themselves to be challenged and to ultimately challenge their weapon. You find that trust through experience and challenges. Just like any other relationship.

    For me I found that relationship in a Sig P228 9mm. I can carry 15+1 per mag so real quick I can throw some lead out there. Likewise I also can make hits at 140 yards as Jesse and T can attest. I haven’t competed in any formal setting, but I know I have friends that force me to man up and get better. Seriously HORSE with handguns with your best friends, they will call that shit out!

  11. My EDC holds 15+1 of .45 for a total DPF of 1459.2 and I bet at least a few of those 0.08′s are outlayers so I’ll take 7 stops over 5 stops for a 9mm. And I think two well placed .45′s will take down just about anyone so it could be counted as 8 stops. :)

    1. Well I’m running +P 9mm with 20rd Mags in my Sig P228 so I’m not sure the disparity is so different. ;)

  12. At various times, I’ll carry a pistol holding 9 rounds of .45, or 14 rounds of .45, or 15 rounds of .40, or 6 rounds of .40.

    Depends on dress, mission and mood.

  13. To hell with all this. I will build and carry an AR15 pistol and carry 30 rounds of 5.56 or 300BLK. Sure it is big and heavy for a civi to conceal all day. But no one here cares about comfort anyway. :/

    1. Careful there. According to Ogre’s “Defensive Power Factor” a round of 5.56 NATO is weaker than a 9mm. Even with a full 30rd mag you’re still looking at a “total DPF load” of around 1200.

      Probably better to go with the .40 Glock 22. Similar DPF and a wee bit easier to find a holster for…

      1. Holster? just sling it on my back under my Carhart jacket. 30 rnds of 300blk is similar to 7.63×39. I wouldn’t be worried about the “power factor”. Doncha love sarcasm……

        1. Haha, very true. Nothing like a dry, sarcastic post with an even more sarcastic reply.

          No but seriously, I like the concealment strategy. Do it right and you’d come off looking like you were wearing the world’s craziest back brace. Nobody considers the cripple to be a threat.

          1. “It is a traction device. I broke my back or something. If you have a problem with that I’ll show you the answer!!!” haha

  14. I’m of the philosophy that a bullet needs to be able to get to a vital organ, and punch a hole in it to be considered effective. From what I’ve heard about Speer Gold Dots, they expand slowly, and provide good penetration with reliable expansion. I need to look into PDX1s as well.

    So a 9mm Gold Dot, preferrably +p, should be able to penetrate deeply enough, and expand reliably enough. So in my mind, the 9mm, especially in 124 grains, will have enough oomph to punch a hole in arteries, heart, or brain. And I am keeping in mind that I should plan on pulling the trigger several times should I ever have to.

    I will probably get an M&P .40 some day, but I’m not going to worry too much about my sig right now.

    I think the M&P is the BEST platform for the .40, you should definitely get one, George.

  15. Wasn’t the “Power Factor” to keep IPSC compeditors from using light loads? If so what does this have to do with non-compeditive shooting anyway?

  16. 9mm Glocks are cheaper to train with and less prone to failure than .40 or .45.; you can also shoot +p+ all day long . More rounds.I carry a .40, but that is only because I tend to piss off fat people.

  17. > The shotgun is slow to reload and limited range.

    My Saiga 12 and I would like to dispute the “slow to reload” assertion. Just how much range is needed for defense as a civilian short of a full-on doomsday survivalist scenario, is debatable. And I keep a couple mags of slugs in my mag pouch anyway.

    1. The “slow to reload” shotgun can also be topped off as you go. (the tube fed kind) Something smart shotgunners actually practice.
      As for range, I can donk things with ANY of my shotguns at 100 yards all day long. There’s not a hell of a lot of defensive shootings that take place beyond 100 yards.
      Not obsolete. Not till goblins start skippin around in woven nanotube full-suit body armor. And by then Mother State will have us all chemically lobotomized so we wont even worry about it.

      Er…I mean…I like the .40. I don’t curl up and cry if I use a 9mm, but, yeah.

      Wasn’t there something out there once that was a 45 case necked down to 40? Ah, who cares. We have plenty of rounds already.

      1. “Wasn’t there something out there once that was a 45 case necked down to 40?”

        The .400 Cor Bon is a .45 necked down to .400 which lets it dance with the 10mm Auto. The .40 Super was either a .460 Rowland or .45 Super necked down to .400 which allows it to mosh with the 10mm and connect elbow to mouth occasionally.

  18. Has anyone in this debate actually ever SHOT someone with a pistol?

    I have, and I’ve been present for others. It’s about shot placement. I’ve seen more dead goblins from .22 and .380 than any other caliber. I’ve seen goblins survive hits, and multiple hits, from 5.56, 12g, .40, 9mm and .45. Nothing is a guarantee. Perhaps, for some, time and effort would be better spent practicing rather than typing and fantasizing…

    1. Gene, I am dazzled by your presence and humbled by your mighty typing, tearful even that you have lowered yourself to communicate with the unworthy.
      Caliber debates are a form of ENTERTAINMENT. It’s a strange American ritual. You don’t have to participate. No one will ask you do so.
      And if you’re going to just assume that you’re the only one who’s ever dropped a hammer on someone, why are you wasting your time talking to the hopelessly ignorant and pathetically delusional? Is it pity? A last vain attempt to make others ponder your seasoned wisdom? Maybe your just too generous.
      I’ve seen goblins survive amazing things as well, and seen people go to the hospital for surprisingly light blows.
      I would say that even more than shot placement, what is a major factor is the Goblin himself. A weight-lifting gangster who’s enjoying a good line of coke isn’t going to handle damage the same way as a dried-up crackhead who hasn’t had real meal for two days and is scrambling between hits.
      In my neck of the woods, 22 and 25 are tied, followed by 380, then 9mm, then 40. An illiterate jackass packing a zincer 25 in the ghetto doesn’t mean it’s silly to prefer a 40 or a 45. It means zincer 25s are cheap, plentiful, and easy to hide. And it points to corner-standers not having the cash or desire for larger weapons. Thats spurious correlation.
      Nope. Nothing is a guarantee. I doubt anyone here was really imagining there was.
      Now get back to goblin busting and ignore us silly Walter Mittys. Your time and effort would be better spent practicing rather than typing and and making huge assumptions.

      1. Why the personal attack? Thank you for being professional… I simply made some points, that I feel are quite valid. Maybe you should just take a deep breath and relax, because, apparently, I touched on a raw nerve of yours. Inadequacy? Envy? Oh, and, since I guess I am entitled to ask now, HAVE YOU ever shot another human being with a pistol/revolver? You carefully worded your response above to make it seem like it, without actually saying it. However, I guess anyone can claim anything on the intardweb

        I’m just saying, you can suppose and debate all day about something, but, in my experience, experience is kind of the defining factor.

        1. Gene, in Raub’s defense “Perhaps, for some, time and effort would be better spent practicing rather than typing and fantasizing…” does indeed touch a nerve. Because you sound like you are belittling everyone on this blog.

          You need to think how others might take your words before posting them. None of us can read anyone’s facial expression or tone. I’ve typed stuff which people took offense too and later on realizing that, yeah, I really did sound like a douche there… So I try to learn from it. I stumble every now and then. With regret.

          I, too believe it’s shot placement. And even your last line which some have contention with is valid. It was your delivery. You could have worded it better. That’s all.

          1. It still does not warrant a personal attack of the sort he tried to dole out. I have carried and trained with firearms (and trained others) professionally as an LEO for over 20 years, plus, service in active duty and reserves for 23, with multiple combat tours. It’s what I do. I’ve not shot humans many more times than I have shot. I know more than some, and less than others when it comes to using firearms against an opponent. I have issue with writers and trainers that tell others “how it is”, when they’ve never done it themselves. Can untested trainers, or firearms “experts” have valuable info to share regarding ammunition, firearms and techniques? Yes. However, it doesn’t mean they are always correct. I’ve heard some far out crazy stuff from people as highly regarded as Ayoob, and others.

            FWIW, the caliber debate is one of the worst topics out there. I roll my eyes when I hear the unquantifiable and mysterious terms of “knock-down power”, or “stopping power”, and see the unending articles and discussions. WHat is most important? Finding a handgun in an acceptable caliber that you are comfortable with, and that you can shoot accurately and effectively, and train with it. By train, I mean actual, quality training, not going to the gravel pit or range and crappily shooting hundreds of rounds from your Gold Plated Desert Eagle.

            I fully support and applaud non-LEO citizens that have chosen to exercise their right to carry firearms on a daily basis. It is not easy. It’s uncomfortable. It’s a pain in the butt. You have to dress around it (I’m not big on open carry, I think it draws attention to you, and it’s best to be the grey man). But, the process of choosing a firearm for carry is more than how big your bullet is, or how big your capacity is. It’s about, again, competency, as well as technique, tactics and, possibly, for your own best interest, knowing the law and what your rights are concerning using a firearm on another human for whatever reason.

        2. I’m good, Gene. Already quite relaxed. I simply made some points that I feel are quite valid. You didn’t touch a raw nerve, and I’m not mad at you. Just a bit perplexed. Why the blanket assumptions? If you feel that people are prone to feeling envious and inadequate around you, maybe you shouldn’t worry so much about their silly banter.
          Carefully worded? This isn’t the enigma machine or quantum physics. Yes. I’ve shot someone. And that doesn’t give me a new level of martial brilliance. My years of dealing with criminals gives me some insight into their behavior and habits, but we were talking about handguns and ammunition specifically.

          “I’m just saying, you can suppose and debate all day about something, but, in my experience, experience is kind of the defining factor.”

          Of what? Talking about handgun cartridges on the internet? Wasting time?
          Again, Gene, no one made you take part in this thread. It’s entertainment, not a mandatory trial for American Samurai. If you feel no one else is QUALIFIED to talk about handgun cartridges on the internet, don’t talk to them. You’re just going to get all upset.

          1. ” but we were talking about handguns and ammunition specifically”

            Yes, as it applies to using it against another human being.

            Nobody made you take part in this thread either. You took exception to my post, and made a personal attack on me. I simply made an expression of my opinion, in general, in my first post.

            I never said it is a trial for American Samurai, nor that no one else is qualified to talk about handgun cartridges. Please do not put words in my mouth.

          2. Gene, I’m not mad. Honestly. I’m not even trying to make YOU mad. I think we’re just not getting each other’s angle. I even agree with you, just maybe not in the same way. I’m just really sarcastic. Maybe too much so.

          3. Ok, Raub. I’m fine with that.

            BTW, it appears that I hold similar views to you on the shotgun. Too many people have discounted it as a viable weapon. I personally believe it is a lack of definitive and quality training. The training world is dominated by carbine classes. You don’t see many in depth SG classes offered. It is a very viable, within it’s limitations, combat/defense/LE tool.

    2. Pondering, debating, thinking (or in your words fantasizing) are what those of us with desk jobs do in between range trips. Try and keep the mental cobwebs swept clean.

      FWIW – I’ve never had to drop the hammer on anyone I’ve pulled on. I consider that an even bigger success than dropping them.

      1. Agreed. One goal for us civvies is to make it through this life without ever having to kill another human being even though fully prepared to do so. Some jobs make you face that decision more often than others. Reducing the chance of succeeding in that goal. But an even greater goal is to remain alive for your family and friends. Effective handgun rounds help. Shot placement helps even more.

  19. I decided to throw some fuel on this fire at my blog as well. My bottom line, I like my .40′s, I used to carry a .45 but I like the increased capacity for the .40, 9mm’s don’t blow my kilt up at all.

  20. I wonder why, in your comparison, you used what are generally the heaviest bullets commonly available in each caliber. There are certainly more effective loadings for each caliber, my preference running towards hot 185 grain .45s. A certain company is offering a .45 loading featuring 185 grain Noslers at 1200 fps/612 ft lbs out of a government model. That’s well beyond the reach of the .40 and pushing into 10mm country. A nice mating of velocity, bullet weight, diameter, sectional density and energy.

      1. I sgree that the 230′s are what most carry. Not so much in agreement regarding the 147′s in 9mm. The middle weights are quite popular. especially in +p guise. The 147′s are important for those that believe weight is everything. Ditto the 180′s in .40 S&W. But from what I read, the majority of LE utilize the 155 and 165′s.

        Mas also wrote about being impressed with the Cor Bon 115 grain JHP. Said a coronor was shocked at the devastation it caused when it entered a perps heart. Now I know he used to be a Cor Bon spokesperson but he is an honorable man and he would not make something like that up just to bolster sales.

        And then of course there’s the popular 127 grain Winchester Ranger +p+ which I like a lot. I haven’t kept up on Mas’ preferences in 9mm these past few years but last I checked he preferred the 124′s and 115′s and felt the 147′s didn’t expand as much and sometimes overpenetrated. But if recent advances have made the 147 better to the point where Mas prefers it, then I might reconsider. Until then I’ll stick with the lighter rounds.

  21. Got it!

    I knew that formula looked familiar and, being INTJ (I’m an engineer, get over it :)), I searched until I found it. You have “rediscovered” the Taylor Knock Out factor with a different divisor. Empirically Taylor’s formula worked pretty well for the rifle cartridges of his day but, AFAIK, was much less useful for ranking handgun cartridges.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

    Another possibility is the Hatcher Formula or, if you want something different, look up L Neil Smith’s “Efficacy” scale.

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