Where'd you get your information that Mil Spec was "Minimum Standard"?  Military Specification is determined as the standard deemed necessary for actual combat, which is what the military does.  I've seen and read about those pretty Baer and Wilson guns having reliability problems caused by out of spec parts, and those parts having to be replaced. Never seen that on a Bushmaster. Mil Spec is developed by years of pragmatic, practical testing and research, not by aesthetic or artistic reasoning. The Military usually requires much more fortitude in their equipment than is necessary or typical for anyone. They also require certain dimensions for  parts so that they are all interchangeable... something lost on the "custom" Wilson and Baer buyers.  

Sometimes you don't want your shit to stand out, you want it to be like everything else, so you can rip it apart and mix pieces if you have to. It's not a ****ing toy, it's a life preserver.

“Milspec” gun – the standards are generally dimensional to certain specified fractions of an inch tolerances in manufacturing.  Often “Custom” standards are holding to much tighter tolerances. Or Mil Spec could be referring to the finish and level of corrosion protection offered.  Again, here the Army’s specs are out classed buy the “custom” options available to civilians… same with a guns acceptable accuracy.  Why would you take offense at the notion that “It can be done better”?  Everything can be improved.  Even the beloved 1911 to whom  Mil Spec often refers to the standard original pattern with a parkerized finish.  If that is the kind of gun you want – great.  To me…  It’s a place to start.  The gun is greatly improved by a lowering of the ejection port and with the addition of a "beavertail".  The original back strap specifies a curved mainspring housing.  This is not necessary and to many a flat MSH offers a much better feel in the gun that allows the shooter to actually be able to shoot it better.  This is an ergonomic improvement and not a mechanical one, true.  So let's also look at some other such non-milspec improvements.  Beveled mag wells.  Extended safeties.  These are improvements that have started out in pistol competition circles and have moved to the mainstream of 1911 features.  Funny, even the elite SPECOP community that uses 1911 handguns, do so with these decidedly unmilspeccy features.  Why is that?  If Milspec is the end all, be all of weapon characteristics... why are they using something different? 

But the point is that there is a purpose for military spec. and since we are talking about military guns... the purpose is best served by uniform and less than perfectly "tight" tolerances which are more forgiving in the field. If we were discussing some exotic Freon cooled target air rifle, then tight tolerance would be a legitimate consideration. For the  implements of War... the be all and end all would be the most effective "category" in that respect. If the specific Mil Spec isn't the most pragmatic configuration for a  particular weapon than it should be changed, because it should always be both effective and interchangeable as part of it's value to soldiers in the field. Your single custom gun my be more accurate, but it won't be worth spit if you cook your barrel and can't fit another one on from spare parts because you have a special carbon fiber lower receiver that weighs 3 ounces but isn't up to the proper "Spec".

Interesting…  During my years in the Army’s Light Infantry and Rangers it was often said that the differences between the AK and the M-16 series was that the M-16 was built to tight tolerances and the AK wasn’t. I’ve since learned the value of the AK’s method and downfall of the AR series.  I don’t know about what military you may or may not have been in – but I never swapped out broken parts in the field.  Soldiers do not regularly pack around spare parts.  Soldiers are also certainly not going to break open a weapon of one weapon to fix another.  You just grab another weapon and get back into the fight, or you do something else... like run, help with the radio, with the medic, with the machinegunners, throw a grenade, or just duck and cover and pray for salvation.  What the hell does having an overheated barrel have to do with the receiver's weight?  Your argument is pure fantasy.  Not only that… it is circular.

Doubro: 

Don't place yourself above me by virtue of your tour of duty. I met plenty of guys who were in the service for years, some were even Marines and they were no experts on firearms. They knew their service rifle and that's it.  People learn about what they are interested in, some learn and some don't. Some retain what they have to at the time, and later  forget or don't simply care about it later. 

If anything, your argument is circular. The Military doesn't teach you anything about Custom gunsmithing. They are all about MILSPEC. The experience you claim doesn't qualify you as a custom gunsmith, that knowledge would only likely come from a personal choice to learn about it on your own. A personal hobby. sure you can make any gun better, but will it be better for combat? Practical to maintain?  There's no fantasy here. There are countless recorded incidents of weapons having to be repaired in the field. During Vietnam the M16 had no cleaning protocol widely established, and the wrong ammo was being pumped  through it during the beginning of the conflict, so the weapons were immediately failing and then being cannibalized or rebuilt while "in Country". Unfortunately, the Milspec on the ammo was wrong, and many died trying to fix their  out of spec rifle/ammo . This establishes the importance of having the proper spec'd equipment.

Ogre:

Since this is based on personal definition and interpretation there is no point in dancing in these circles.  FACT:  MIL SPEC standards are often the LOWEST BID.  Sometimes it is good… Fine.  But to someone who looks into the matter closer – he will find that it is a place to start.  Look at the AR-15.Take one MIL SPEC XM15 Bushmaster and put it up next to the Wilson Combat AR or the DPMS Panther AR and you will realize that MIL SPEC can be greatly improved upon.  Vast Differences in feel and function.  Oh – and MIL SPEC parts can often drop in and work just fine in those rifles too.  Sorry to burst that bubble for you.  Same goes for 1911 type handguns. BTW, Of course I place myself above you by virtue of my tour of duty... What have you done?  Worked at Jiffy Mart?  I don't mean to be indignant about that, but what the fuck do you know about Military Specifications when you have had nothing to do with it?  When you have not lugged around a wonderful milspecky rifle and have it feel like a Model T Ford when you try out a Formula One rifle from a Non-Milspec rifle maker.

Doubro:

Mil Spec is not determined by lowest bid, but by the testing and research of the Dept of Defense.  The lowest bid is supposed to be the least expensive supplier to produce the Mil Spec.  Yea, if you're building a fancy project rifle, or some rich mans toy. A battle rifle is mil spec for a reason.  My XM-15 is as good a weapon than either of those "other manufacturers".  Sorry, but there have been more than a few instances when that was not the case. If it was 100% interchangeable, then for all intents and purposes, they would be mil spec.  Yea, I'm sure that Hi cap Para Ord with the Kings bushingless recoil system will simply switch out with any 1911 Springfield.   

Ogre:

Why the hell would you need to suddenly switch out the barrel and bushing from a Para to a Springfield?  I can not fathom why you are caught up in this fantasy that a gun is less worthy for fighting purposes or for your own ownership if it can not be parts swappable?  1911s or AR-15s… the gun platform doesn’t matter.  There are many guns out there that are not Mil Spec.  They don’t need to be.  Even guns that have similar types in military service – If I wanted a Berretta I would get a Border Marshal.  It is a much better handgun than an M9.  It isn’t Mil Spec either.  That and your POS Bushmaster can't touch a DPMS Panther, if you have ever handled and fired one, this would be apparent.  Lever Action rifles have taken more game in this country than any other type with the exception of Black Powder… These guns are not Mil Spec.  The only “Mil Spec” black powder rifle that I know of is the “Brown Bess”.  And going back to that era the Brown Bess was trumped by the American’s collection of many unique and even hand made rifles.  The American rifles were not Mil Spec and you couldn’t swap parts between them either.  Did the British win?  Did the British have an advantage?  No to both.  Look – Mil Spec isn’t the font of all that is Firepower.  "Mil Spec is not determined by lowest bid, but by the testing and research of the Dept of Defense."  You don't understand this at all do you?  The Military buys the guns from civilian suppliers who want to make a fat profit.  So while, yes, the "milspec" is the specifications to make the item, however the item is still made as cheaply and as quickly as possible.  Military specifications offer a lot of room for error.   Go try to lecture someone who knows a little less on the subject would ya?

Doubro:

I don't know if I could find anyone like that.

Ogre:

That's it? "Hero"? Gee, I wouldn't call myself a hero...but thanks... 

I did. I stated and defended, but your not reading/listening.  Your not getting it. 

I will not waste time trying to convince you if that is what your looking for.  You stated your opinion – I stated mine.  What the fuck else are you looking for?  Hurt my feelings?  No, but it looks like I hurt yours…

Sorry that the Ogre doesn’t hold your ideal of firearms in high regard. 

Sorry that the Ogre doesn’t masturbate to GI Joes and Mil Spec hardware. 

I’m sorry you are such a pathetic loser with such a weak sense of your own manhood to think that everyone’s ideology must be the same as yours.

I am not into debating over the net.  It’s a waste of time and you’re a waste of time.

I have repeatedly attempted to explain my opinion to you, using small words so you could understand.  I was trying to help you understand… but you do not want understanding or enlightenment... you are just looking for an argument. 

I’ve used many examples and you keep up with the same jack off  unsubstantiated “swapping” argument. I’m not going to fight you about it, I was taught not to beat up on retards. If you are looking for a fight about your Mil Spec holy grail… Look someplace else. 

Mad Ogre is one of my outlets for my Opinions.  I am not obligated to defend them.  Gimme a break.  Do you have any idea what it would involve to argue each opinion with EVERYONE who wrote me to disagree?  Mad Ogre raises a lot of hackles out there. 

BTW, no one else would call you a hero either - I was being sarcastic.  Most people with IQ's over 70 understand sarcasm.  Run along now.

Doubro:

Oh I see, you wanted the last word on the subject...  Well, by all means have it...  Then shut up.

Ogre:

You’re a class act there Dumbro…  Thanks.  You got me!  I surrender to your vast but inexperienced wisdom. 

Now, leave me alone.  Go get your mullet haired and camo pants wearing lame ass back into your Trans Am and drive your happy self over to the Army-Navy Surplus store so you can masturbate on all the neat Milspec stuff there.

Doubro: